Protecting equipment from bad power.

[Jay Corwin]

Again, I do NOT claim to have witnessed the event personally, so you could be correct. I have however seen consumer electronics literally ignite after an electrical failure of some sort. In the case that I witnessed, a Dell I believe it was the XPS line, mid tower engineering workstation. I do not think the issue there was grid power, but rather component failure on the workstation in question.

And you bring me back to the generator power question.

I know that most reasonable quality UPSes do regulate AC voltage. But what would a band that is hired to do an off the grid gig, like for example Burning Man, need to insure that any generator they buy, rent, or get provided by the venue operator doesn't fry their gear?

I am FAR more concerned with blowing equipment with generator power than with a transformer blow out, And I don't give half a rats behind, if there is lighting within reasonable proximity, my gear gets unplugged until the danger passes. I don't know about other areas, but several close by venues actually INSIST the band disconnect if there is an active electrical storm within 6 miles. I think it has something to do with insurance liability. I have seen bands in at least 3 local bars, after the manager goes up to the stage and talks to the singer, usually while they are playing, stop playing, tell everyone they are taking a break while the storm is overhead, and unplug from power.

Generators safe for digitial electronics are usually label as inverter generators. This is because they take the AC generated, rectify it to DC, then invert it back to AC. Without getting into all the technical mumbo-jumbo, it gives you a clean, regulated output.

Regular generators are more like a lawn mower engine with an alternator connected instead of a blade. Again there is a little more to it than that, but not much. They are intended to run devices that aren't damaged by voltage/frequency fluctuations.

 

[Big Hoss]

Generators safe for digitial electronics are usually label as inverter generators. This is because they take the AC generated, rectify it to DC, then invert it back to AC. Without getting into all the technical mumbo-jumbo, it gives you a clean, regulated output.

Regular generators are more like a lawn mower engine with an alternator connected instead of a blade. Again there is a little more to it than that, but not much.

Now basically, a UPS does exactly what you are talking about, takes AC power, rectifies it to DC and stuffs it into the batteries, and in turn inverts it back to AC regulating the output line voltage.

I know I have worked on multi million dollar computer installations in buildings where the computers ran great, but the lighting was always flickering... The computer power was provided by a giant, dedicated, I believe it was Hitachi built centralized UPS system with dedicated wiring / outlets for the computers. (Orange sockets).

So would using a UPS between say a Honda Generator, and the amp be a good way of keeping the amp alive and working correctly?

 

[Jay Corwin]

Now basically, a UPS does exactly what you are talking about, takes AC power, rectifies it to DC and stuffs it into the batteries, and in turn inverts it back to AC regulating the output line voltage.

I know I have worked on multi million dollar computer installations in buildings where the computers ran great, but the lighting was always flickering... The computer power was provided by a giant, dedicated, I believe it was Hitachi built centralized UPS system with dedicated wiring / outlets for the computers. (Orange sockets).

So would using a UPS between say a Honda Generator, and the amp be a good way of keeping the amp alive and working correctly?

I couldn't say for sure. My guess is that the UPS could still get damaged in the event that genny had an issue. However Honda makes really good generators!

If the UPS is continuous, then I would say your idea would probably work.

However if the UPS only runs on battery power when an issue is detected with the incoming voltage, then your gear would not be protected. This is because the generator output would still be running your equipment until such a problem is detected, and the UPS switches to battery power. If you have a switching UPS like this, then all bets are off.

 

[Big Hoss]

I couldn't say for sure. My guess is that the UPS could still get damaged in the event that genny had an issue. However Honda makes really good generators!

If the UPS is continuous, then I would say your idea would probably work.

However if the UPS only runs on battery power when an issue is detected with the incoming voltage, then your gear would not be protected. This is because the generator output would still be running your equipment until such a problem is detected, and the UPS switches to battery power. If you have a switching UPS like this, then all bets are off.

Well, not sure if this is what you are talking about, but the Generator I am looking into (Mostly for normal storm recovery stuff, but also for remote gigs) is the Honda like this one.

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[Jay Corwin]

Well, not sure if this is what you are talking about, but the Generator I am looking into (Mostly for normal storm recovery stuff, but also for remote gigs) is the Honda like this one.

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That does not appear to be an inverter-generator. For backup power though, that is one hell of a generator.

 

[31HZ]

Well, not sure if this is what you are talking about, but the Generator I am looking into (Mostly for normal storm recovery stuff, but also for remote gigs) is the Honda like this one.

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For that kind of money you are most of the way to an inverter generator. Honda's inverter line is also MUCH quieter than their regular generators, like in the 55db range.

Check out the EU3000IS in that price range, a bit down on power but substantially better featured (basically the RV industry standard generator). I have an EU6500is and it's fantastic, FWIW.

 

[Honch]

Now on the issue of financial recovery, the band that suffered the loss, they were "employed on contract" to the bar, so as I understand the law, and I am NOT a lawyer, but old enough to have seen enough of these cases go through from friends, colleagues etc... to know that the bar owner would be responsible to reimburse the band for their losses, the bar owner would likely have to make a claim against their business insurance, which in turn would pay out, and make a claim for damages against the power grid operator.

As far as the safety aspect is concerned, the bar did their due dilligence. The issue, again is with the power grid operator. The owners / operators of the power grid failed to maintain their equipment in a safe and reliable manner, causing risk to human life and property damage. They are the organization that needs to be held liable, but we go back to the legal protection issue, and I seriously doubt that they will be held liable for their negligence.

Well then, a clear cut case of insurance matter then. It's a lot of people that could've been jolted, not to speak of money loss in damaged equipment.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Once the varistor breaks in there, you're protected no matter what tries to come in after it.

Not if it was a shunt-type varistor, which is by far the most common. If a shunt blows, it typically becomes an open circuit and offers no protection.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

Yeah, I should know that. I put MOVs on my power strips one time & that's exactly how I installed them. It's pretty easy to take a cheap power strip & make it into something that can protect your equipment, but something catastrophic like described in the OP is another story.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

You got me worried now.
Playing a gig with generator power Saturday.
Wish me luck.

Is there something wrong with the generator? Is it unregulated?

 

[Slevage]

First of all I feel bad for the damage to everyone's equipment I hope the bar owner assists in some kind of help with repairs. I also read about generators causing some problems I would invest in a good quality suppressor/conditioner it doesn't have to be super expensive either.

If the primary windings of the power company's transformer shorted to the secondary winding, it would take more suppression and conditioning to protect the down stream loads. Isolation would do the job, but a 5 to 10 kVA transformers are heavy and expensive.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

For playing on a generator: make sure it's an entertainment-grade one. If the generator is going to be close by (as opposed to, say, centrally located at a festival or event), get a whisper or "movie quiet" one so you're not competing with the noise.

Generator power is generally very clean. Always avoid unregulated generators.

One band I was in years ago was booked to play on the roadside during a local marathon (the only 6:30 AM music gig of my life so far). Our bandleader said he'd take care of getting a genny. He showed up with a little one with a lawn mower engine powering it. You've got to be kidding me; we're going to run a couple guitar amps, my bass rig, and a small PA off this. Well, at 5:30 in the morning there's no alternative, so we'll have to just not play loud at all. So he fires it up and I metered the voltage. It was a little low but still OK, at about 112 V. We plugged everything in and did a quick sound check, and I saw the voltage dropped to about 105 V. Not disastrous, but it could cause problems if we happen to hammer a little harder. A minute or after our sound check I hear the generator rev way up; I turned around and see the bandleader crouched over the generator. He had squeezed the throttle lever. Our lead singer had just started playing acoustic guitar at our gigs, and he had it going into a brand new little Marshall solid state amp on a stand. It emitted weird noises of all sorts and went silent. Fortunately, that was the only casualty of the generator revving. I don't recall if the band leader paid for the repairs but I hope he learned a lesson.

 

[David Jayne]

I couldn't say for sure. My guess is that the UPS could still get damaged in the event that genny had an issue. However Honda makes really good generators!

If the UPS is continuous, then I would say your idea would probably work.

However if the UPS only runs on battery power when an issue is detected with the incoming voltage, then your gear would not be protected. This is because the generator output would still be running your equipment until such a problem is detected, and the UPS switches to battery power. If you have a switching UPS like this, then all bets are off.

Most UPS work this way. So no, it doesn't help. Battery only comes into play when there's a problem.

 

[Slevage]

For playing on a generator: make sure it's an entertainment-grade one. If the generator is going to be close by (as opposed to, say, centrally located at a festival or event), get a whisper or "movie quiet" one so you're not competing with the noise.

Generator power is generally very clean. Always avoid unregulated generators.

One band I was in years ago was booked to play on the roadside during a local marathon (the only 6:30 AM music gig of my life so far). Our bandleader said he'd take care of getting a genny. He showed up with a little one with a lawn mower engine powering it. You've got to be kidding me; we're going to run a couple guitar amps, my bass rig, and a small PA off this. Well, at 5:30 in the morning there's no alternative, so we'll have to just not play loud at all. So he fires it up and I metered the voltage. It was a little low but still OK, at about 112 V. We plugged everything in and did a quick sound check, and I saw the voltage dropped to about 105 V. Not disastrous, but it could cause problems if we happen to hammer a little harder. A minute or after our sound check I hear the generator rev way up; I turned around and see the bandleader crouched over the generator. He had squeezed the throttle lever. Our lead singer had just started playing acoustic guitar at our gigs, and he had it going into a brand new little Marshall solid state amp on a stand. It emitted weird noises of all sorts and went silent. Fortunately, that was the only casualty of the generator revving. I don't recall if the band leader paid for the repairs but I hope he learned a lesson.

Unless a professional company is contracted to supply power---- I'd only hook my good stuff up to an inverter type gennie.

When I do a parade on the back of a truck or a outdoor gig that doesn't require heavy sound reinforcement (back yard picnic, etc)--- I don't bring my best gear.

 

[Clark Dark]

I use a Tripp Lite Isobar series suppressor myself. Cancels spurious AM radio signals from getting into my signal path too.

 

[Honch]

Anyone getting rid of mobile (cellular) phone signals? My amps (any) at home just turns silent when I turned on the blinds in the windows. When they're open there's a lot of stary noises heard. Like a bumble bee. They're of aluminium and bucks the bumble bee noise from a hefty "all bells and whistles" mast (mobiel phone station) some 200 meters away on the top of a roof of a 18 story building. Direct line in sight. When I move my amps BEHIND the windows it disappears. It seems that there is more stray noises creeping into our equipment these days than ever. Mind you, everything is run through a FURMAN conditioner, but it's the back (open or close) and speaker magnet that picks up that weird noise and amplify it. Regardless of all volumes turned down to zero, and nothing plugged in, not even a cable. But this is OT. Flat TV and computer wireless runs havoc with this too. Those living on the first floor hasn't got any problems because then a big building obscures it from direct view.

 

[Honch]

What is this company called who claims Samson and Furman just stole their ideas? Forgot their name. They seem to be the cream of the crop but - of course - pricey as hell? I think I recall a thread over at TGP many years ago about power conditioner/supressors and he (who invented the company) jumped in. He made no bones about who he was, but it seemed like "his" gear was the cream of the crop and even Furman was for amateurs. I don't know if he was a former Furman...(!?).

Anyone?

 

[Honch]

Phew...found it at last, it's called EQUITECH. They take care of most things. However, don't worry about equipment. They cost as much as you having to buy new equipment, and bass anyway. But your life was saved.

But the actual BAR should invest in one of these: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[seamonkey]

Anyone getting rid of mobile (cellular) phone signals? My amps (any) at home just turns silent when I turned on the blinds in the windows. When they're open there's a lot of stary noises heard. Like a bumble bee. They're of aluminium and bucks the bumble bee noise from a hefty "all bells and whistles" mast (mobiel phone station) some 200 meters away on the top of a roof of a 18 story building. Direct line in sight. When I move my amps BEHIND the windows it disappears. It seems that there is more stray noises creeping into our equipment these days than ever. Mind you, everything is run through a FURMAN conditioner, but it's the back (open or close) and speaker magnet that picks up that weird noise and amplify it. Regardless of all volumes turned down to zero, and nothing plugged in, not even a cable. But this is OT. Flat TV and computer wireless runs havoc with this too. Those living on the first floor hasn't got any problems because then a big building obscures it from direct view.

Sounds like some of your gear needs some shielding help. The blinds shield stuff, the wall might shield stuff due to aluminum foil facing on the insulation, or just thickness of the wall. Take a cookie sheet and hold it up behind your gear and see if it shields it. There is no power conditioner in the universe than can reverse bad shielding.

Speakers aren't inputs they are outputs. And if you got noise coming out the speaker with the amps powered off or disconnected then you better get out of there and call the FCC!
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[Stealth Fighter]

Where is my tinfoil hat when I need it.