punchier sound question

[byacey]

To me, "punch" is somewhere in the 100-200hz range. It's not the subs. It's not the high mids or the highs. It's the meat that comprises most of the sound (unless you're playing in a high register). I get good punch through a variety of things. I run a HPF to ditch all the mud. I run a comp to make sure all my notes are even volume so I can be loud in the mix. And of course I EQ to make sure I get plenty of that meaty bump. But yeah it's all pretty subjective and what I mean bye "punch" may not be what you mean. I want a good clean bump with no mud that can sit high in a mix without the risk of loud notes dominating it.

I agree with most of what you describe, but if you listen to the 100 to 200 Hz band, it's what I like to call low end "woof", probably where woofers got their name. This band of frequencies can make the bass sound very boomy and wooly when overdone.

To my ear, the upper mids 400 to 800 Hz (more so 600 to 800) is what adds a solid attack and definition to the notes, what I perceive as adding punch to the low end.
Back in the 1960s Bert Kaempfert doubled his bass tracks with a 2nd bass guitar doubling with staccato notes EQd high to give the bass what they termed "a thunder-crack sound" This created an extremely punchy bass sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUiAhclmvfE

 

[chaosMK]

I confess, after years of reading TB, I still don't know what punch means. My engineering brain wants all y'all to speak in terms of frequency, not terms of flavor, color, taste, texture, mass, temperature, age or ...

I think it's mostly velocity in the low mids (180-220). The engineering problem you want to imagine solving is something like a modern metal scenario... how do you have equal bearing in a mix where everyone is going all out in a pretty low tuning (say C or B). Where every piece of gear your squad is using is tuned to come across both loudly and clearly, and every note being played is played aggressively. Listen to a song like Gojira - Heaviest Matter of the Universe... and imagine what kind of responsiveness you'd want out of your bass rig.

 

[rtslinger]

Compression, less bass, more mids. and if all else fails HPF

 

[sawzalot]

In my mind "punch" and "definition" are actually two different sets of mids frequencies. "Punch" can be had by gently boosting what I would call low low mids, somewhere between 100 and 200 Hz. "Definition" comes from somewhat higher frequency mids, somewhere around 500-700 Hz and maybe up to upper mids around 2k or so depending on what you're after.

Here's my formula: I start out with a flat eq and engage a high-pass filter anywhere between 30-50 Hz. This cuts out frequencies that mostly eat up amplifier power without contributing a whole lot to the bass signal. Then I'll crank up the amp and see what it can do. I'll add tiny bits of eq here and there to make it sound the way I want. It's really important to do this while playing with the band, bc what sounds good solo often doesn't work when in the mix with the rest of the band.

The other thing to keep in mind is how the other instruments are eq'd. If you have a guitarist that likes a bassy/trebly guitar sound, you may wind up with frequency conflicts between your instruments. Same thing if you have a keyboard player with a heavy left hand. So you may also have some person-to-person negotiating to do if you have those situations.

 

[Rocinante_x1]

Compression. Low Mids. A little bit of distortion.

 

[brianrost]

Since noone mentioned it, do NOT engage Ultra Lo. That sucks out low mids around 250hZ.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Much of the punch comes from the bass. Fatter higher tension will help.

 

[NathOBX]

You'll find you need to use your eq to tune that punch vs boom balance differenly depending on the room.

 

[Fynn]

I have an ampeg PF 500 going into an ampeg 15 inch cab. I love the sound but am looking for a little bit more punch and definition, especially in the lower quadrants. I an looking at the Ampeg 2x10 cab with a horn. If I added this to the 15 would it give me that definition, or should I replace the 15 with the 2x10? TIA

Ampeg 10' are usually very well known for their punch. Now the actual question would be more what you understand under punch. I would probably adjust my compressor if I wanted more punch and maybe remove some of the very low frequencies. So maybe you need to buy a compressor

 

[Lobster11]

Perhaps a HPF would help keep the energy up in the useful range.

This. I bought one and found that it cleaned up the bottom end beautifully. Even my guitar players commented that my tone was more clear and "punchy," which they loved. (Yes, they did actually use the word "punchy.") You can get the Broughton "always-on" version for 75 bucks.

 

[groovaholic]

Since noone mentioned it, do NOT engage Ultra Lo. That sucks out low mids around 250hZ.

Beat me to it! The "Ultra Lo" button on Ampegs could be re-labeled "Bass Should Be Felt, Not Heard".
Or, it's just a great way for Ampeg to sell amps since it sounds awesome when you're demo'ing the amp, but as soon as you try to use that tone in a noisy mix, you disappear.

Since I've tended to play in noisy bands, I've learned to love mids.
But now that I'm north of 50 and playing mellower music, I've found where the scooped tone has its place.

 

[Rib 13]

String changes and string newness usually does it for me

 

[Indiana Mike]

Sealed cab may give you more punch.

What model cab are you using ?

 

[misterCRUSH]

I agree that punch rests in the low mids, but IMHO you have to be careful boosting (400hz). Most sound sources in a band tend to produce energy in this frequency range. Even worse, the energy tends to bounce around and build up. IMHO, too much build up in this frequency range can mask punch and clarity and cause the bass to sound loose and unfocused.

The other thing is a surprising number of bass amps don't sound very punchy even in totally dry acoustic environment. If the rig does not produce a punchy sound it's pretty much a lost cause.

If the rig does sound punchy, it may help to elevate the cab and tilt it back to aim at your head. This is so you can hear the full bandwidth the cab produces and the sound travels directly from the speaker to your ears, rather than bouncing around the room for awhile before you hear it. If the cab is flat on the floor, the upper mids and highs will shoot out in front of the cab, below ear level.

Is your Ampeg ported or sealed ?

Exactly which cab do you currently have ?

I think the cab is a 115 LF it is ported in the back.

 

[Analogeezer]

I confess, after years of reading TB, I still don't know what punch means. My engineering brain wants all y'all to speak in terms of frequency, not terms of flavor, color, taste, texture, mass, temperature, age or ...

Geez man, everybody knows "punch" is the cousin of "slam"! These are well defined and well understood terms LOL

Analogeezer

 

[Indiana Mike]

I think the cab is a 115 LF it is ported in the back.

You may try the 115HE
It’s sealed and may give you more of what you want.

The PF210HE is sealed as well.

Research it yourself. There’s a lot that goes into a speaker box. I’m no expert by any means.

 

[misterCRUSH]

UPdate: I think I have fixed my problem, I cut some of the bass in the eq, and boosted the mids around 400. I also engaged the HPF in my Darkglass Hyper Luminal compressor. I will continue to play with my settings, but I am much happier with my sound now. Thank you all for your suggestions and thoughts

 

[Standalone]

I get a lot of punch from my two 115 stack.

 

[woody357]

See my understanding of punch may be different than most here. I think punch is that feeling you get back in the day from when the bass player played you could physically feel the bass thumping in your chest these new amps to me don’t have that sometimes Unless you are using a tube amp

 

[paskisti]

Nothing to do with tube amps, you need big enough cab (810, 412, maybe 215 etc.) and enough power to make air moving. Of course wrong EQ may ruin otherwise good setup and not sounding punchy.