Punting infants is a dirty game

[Thunderscreech]

whats unfortunate is that when this guy goes to prison he will spend the rest of his days in solitary so gen pop doesnt torture him daily. prison gangs absolutely HATE anyone who harms children in any way

or he'll wind up looking like the guy from an infamous shock site form the late '90s

 

[artistanbul]

You say my argument is weak because it doesn't gel with yours. That's okay, I can take it.

I never said I don't agree with you. I merely said your argument is weak. I know they are different

Here is what I mean

"The difference here is question of when a fetus becomes a person."
Meaning, when something is person (sentient), it's (more)wrong to kill it.
And I'm saying, if you are protecting the sentience, a grownup has better and more obvious qualities in that regard, than a baby.

"The 20-year-old would at least be able to comprehend what was happening and attempt to defend himself. The same cannot be said, or even hinted to, when speaking about an infant."
Here -as you are arguing that killing a baby is worse- you say killing something unable to comprehend and defend itself is worse than the opposite.

These two are contradictory. At this point you may argue that, after becoming a person, it is worse to kill a person that is inferior in comprehension and self defence abilities. In that case it gets even more weird. Would killing a "special" person be worse than killing a martial artist professor with 200 IQ? Why?

I want to emphasize that I haven't stated my opinion in the issue yet.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

For what it's worth, I feel animal abusers should be dealt with to the harshest degree possible as well. I've expressed my sentiment here many times that I feel Michael Vick should have been destroyed.

You say my argument is weak because it doesn't gel with yours. That's okay, I can take it.

I am pro-choice. To the fullest extent, but only in early pregnancy. After a certain point (which I care not to get into here), I become pro-life. The difference here is question of when a fetus becomes a person. It seems my thoughts and your thoughts differ. That's cool.

I'm *also* pro-choice because, as a therapist who did family therapy for many years, saw some incredibly abusive and destructive things done to children. Stuff that would curve your spine if I told you.... We as humans feel it is humane to end the suffering of animals. yet, humans deal with incredible amounts of pain, suffering, abuse, neglect, hate, etc. and it would be considered criminal to end their lives. I feel that if more parents who were not fit to be parents in the first place, terminated their pregnancies in acknowledging they wouldn't be fit parents, there would be less abuse and neglect of defenseless children.

Again, don't call my arguments weak because you don't agree with them. Just say you disagree and be on your merry way.

I agree with you. I know what you mean about animals. I've always enjoyed looking into my dogs eyes, and there is an innocence there much like the innocence I'm talking about with a baby. I would never harm an animal, and I would also go out of my way to defend one if I witnessed it being abused, but by the same token, I don't know why, but I don't hold a dog or animal's life to the same value as a human's life. My perspective would have been totally different before my son was born, but it's really funny how many animal instincts come into play when you're suddenly faced with the task of raising a child. One thing I noticed, and don't get me wrong I loved my dog immensely (RIP Nino ), but I instantly noticed that my dog was second fiddle to my son. Long prison terms are good for animal abusers like Vick, and I would love to see them treated like the animal they abused, but I think the death penalty should be reserved for murder of a human life.

I also agree with you on the point of abortion. For some reason, and this is not based upon religious views (I'm an atheist), I also feel early term abortions are fine(and man as a teacher I can't tell you how many parents would be better off without having ever reproducing in the first place), but I also feel late term abortions should be reserved for very very special circumstances. Now where that grey line between acceptable and not acceptable is, I can't tell you, and for the most part it's personal, and I'd be willing to venture that it might differ between individuals. Because of this discrepancy between individual perspectives, I think the best default is *pro choice* simply because it accommodates everyone's beliefs. Please feel free to disagree with me. I respect the fact that people might view things differently. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable with it.

 

[Eric Perry]

I never said I don't agree with you. I merely said your argument is weak. I know they are different

Here is what I mean

"The difference here is question of when a fetus becomes a person."
Meaning, when something is person (sentient), it's (more)wrong to kill it.
And I'm saying, if you are protecting the sentience, a grownup has better and more obvious qualities in that regard, than a baby.

"The 20-year-old would at least be able to comprehend what was happening and attempt to defend himself. The same cannot be said, or even hinted to, when speaking about an infant."
Here -as you are arguing that killing a baby is worse- you say killing something unable to comprehend and defend itself is worse than the opposite.

These two are contradictory. At this point you may argue that, after becoming a person, it is worse to kill a person that is inferior in comprehension and self defence abilities. In that case it gets even more weird. Would killing a "special" person be worse than killing a martial artist professor with 200 IQ? Why?

I want to emphasize that I haven't stated my opinion in the issue yet.

I don't think they are contradictory. I feel abusing/torturing/killing defenseless creatures, be them children, special needs people, dogs, cats, whatever, is worse than killing someone or something that can defend itself.I'm not minimizing the murder of creatures that can defend themselves, I'm just saying it's far more heinous to do it to a defenseless creature.What IS your opinion, btw?

 

[elpezpr]

Honestly, if you had a family dog who became rabid, and seriously mauled your child, I doubt you'd consider housing it, medicating it and hoping that it would get better. I'm willing to bet that you'd put the dog down in the name of your family's best interest. I think we should consider society's best interest and think along the same lines.

Granted, it may sound harsh to compare a man to a rabid dog, but then rabid dogs aren't necesarily making a concious decision to kill, are they...

Just my opinion.

Yes!

 

[Eric Perry]

I agree with you. I know what you mean about animals. I've always enjoyed looking into my dogs eyes, and there is an innocence there much like the innocence I'm talking about with a baby. I would never harm an animal, and I would also go out of my way to defend one if I witnessed it being abused, but by the same token, I don't know why, but I don't hold a dog or animal's life to the same value as a human's life. My perspective would have been totally different before my son was born, but it's really funny how many animal instincts come into play when you're suddenly faced with the task of raising a child. One thing I noticed, and don't get me wrong I loved my dog immensely (RIP Nino ), but I instantly noticed that my dog was second fiddle to my son. Long prison terms are good for animal abusers like Vick, and I would love to see them treated like the animal they abused, but I think the death penalty should be reserved for murder of a human life.

I also agree with you on the point of abortion. For some reason, and this is not based upon religious views (I'm an atheist), I also feel early term abortions are fine(and man as a teacher I can't tell you how many parents would be better off without having ever reproducing in the first place), but I also feel late term abortions should be reserved for very very special circumstances. Now where that grey line between acceptable and not acceptable is, I can't tell you, and for the most part it's personal, and I'd be willing to venture that it might differ between individuals. Because of this discrepancy between individual perspectives, I think the best default is *pro choice* simply because it accommodates everyone's beliefs. Please feel free to disagree with me. I respect the fact that people might view things differently. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable with it.

Totally agree, and you clarify some things I may have been hazy on.It should be noted to those of you that might not know, I too am an Atheist. I think that tidbit of knowledge is important in a topic like this.

 

[capnsandwich]

Crimes against children break my heart every time. Sometimes I really hate this world.

 

[artistanbul]

Instinctively, I'd like to maim a person who kills a baby as well. I feel it's far worse. But I am not rationalizing it. It's my nature to do so. That's why I never opposed maki's POV. The same inherent tendency of mine, doesn't extend to older people, and morons though.

On the other side, rationally I think murdering humans is the same, regardless of age and the level of sentienve and difference is only in the reasons that made the event take place.

Ideologically, I believe killing a useful person is worse than killing a useless person.

I believe that having opinions are good, but knowing what they are and why they are there is much more important. Hence this discussion.

 

[Eric Perry]

...The same inherent tendency of mine, doesn't extend to older people, and morons though...

I'd disagree there. It comes back to the whole defenseless thing for me. By "morons", do you mean truly mentally ******** people, or just blatant knuckleheads? Moron is (in it's actual meaning) a no longer used term to define a mentally ******** person. Same with idiot and imbecile. Yep, they were once legitimate technical terms in MH speak.

 

[artistanbul]

I mean mentally ********. But there is nothing to disagree as it is not an opinion. It is a natural tendency. I understand you differ in that regard though.

There are reasons to all natural tendencies. There are animals with all the moral values we have. Many kill their weak infants. Some kill their useless elders. Some are always in pack no matter what. The difference in our inherent values is important to have.

 

[Korladis]

But there is just a pure innocence to a baby. They're totally helpless and dependent on the love of grownups. To be able to look at an innocent baby and to commit such a heinous act so impulsively is not only wrong, but it's a malfunction in the human condition. Whether it's from the crack, or not, it's a malfunction that needs to be removed from civilization.

Not that I'm justifying murder, but often murder has a motive based on interactions between people. Still, even in a murder attempt, often there is a chance for an adult to catch on, and to defend themselves, sometimes successfully. A baby has no such chance, or even the capacity to comprehend what's happening. This reminds me of the story of the mother that beat her little six year old daughter to death while her daughter was still hugging her and telling her mommy that she loved her. I mean what the hell? As a parent there is nothing more sacred that the love of my child, and nothing I cherish more than the love he gives me back. I would die, and I have the capacity to kill to preserve that. I just can't fathom where this worthless piece of turd comes from, nor am I interested in his perspective. As far as I'm concerned, if you do something like this, then you need to be destroyed.

I suppose I'll understand better if I ever have children. Which is a big "if."

I'd agree that someone would have to be pretty nuts to kill an infant though, as there's not really any possible motive that anyone would think makes sense. At least in this day and age.