I always thought it would be clever for a recording studio to convert an upright bass body into an amplifier. Attach a transducer to the top somehow and feed it a bass guitar or EUB signal, then mic it up.
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Double Bass Putting Air in EUB Sound
- Thread starter moretolife
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I always thought it would be clever for a recording studio to convert an upright bass body into an amplifier. Attach a transducer to the top somehow and feed it a bass guitar or EUB signal, then mic it up.
Hummergeist
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- Jul 21, 2020
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I have soloed an upright bass and listened to the group leader brief the band. I believe the bass had one of the original Realists under the bridge. I was amused by how clear the voice was, but I would not consider it high fidelity. I could understand the words, the tone and texture of the voice was distorted.
The feedback loop between the amp and the bass makes it sound less authentic. The more gain the worse it tends to get.
The results are different when the bass's body is responding to the direct energy from the strings, versus the indirect energy coming from the amp. Although it might be a fun experiment, I wouldn't expect reamping an EUB through the body of an actual upright to give you the sound of an actual upright. If blended skillfully, you may get a subtle improvement.
My solution was to embrace the sound and response of the EUB, rather than trying to force it to be something it was not.
Hummergeist
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- Jul 21, 2020
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Ah, no, we're on the same page. I would love to hear it used as a quirky speaker of some kind, wouldn't expect it to make anything sound more 'real'
and also 100% with you about embracing EUBs for what they are, I have two NS Designs and they are great instruments in their own right, with a few caveats.
I don't use modeling software or special electronics on mine.
The thing I found that helped most betting a more "realistic" DB tone was the use of orchestral strings.
With their damping material that reduces sustain and brightness.
Other than that, proper right hand technique.
The thing I found that helped most betting a more "realistic" DB tone was the use of orchestral strings.
With their damping material that reduces sustain and brightness.
Other than that, proper right hand technique.
Putting a recorded solid body EUB through an acoustic DB body with a shaker would get you the sound dispersion of a DB, but misses the feedback from the body vibration to the string, similar to a solid body EUB by itself. A hollow body EUB has that, but with much higher resonant frequencies because of the smaller body.
But the question is how close do I get to the sound reception of an acoustic DB in a group. I don’t think anybody seriously uses an EUB in a purely acoustic group with no amplification except the bass.
So, if the bass will be amplified anyway, you will get a sound coloration by the speaker in both cases, solid body EUB and acoustic DB amplified.
For this case a modeling after an acoustic bass miced and pickuped for a solid body EUB would be almost as good as the amplified acoustic DB (if it is well made and tailored to the EUB).
You can feel the missing (or better different) feedback to the string by the more difficult to start string and the enhanced sustain due to a lower damping by the higher reflection at the bridge feet.
So, like Francois said, higher damped strings can compensate a bit for that.
BTW, the sound does not radiate primarily from the sound holes, this is only true for the lowest vibrational mode and partially for some of the next higher ones, but mainly from the area of the top. With higher modes the pressure in the box is almost unchanged, so hardly any output from the f-holes for these modes compared to the top dispersion.
But the question is how close do I get to the sound reception of an acoustic DB in a group. I don’t think anybody seriously uses an EUB in a purely acoustic group with no amplification except the bass.
So, if the bass will be amplified anyway, you will get a sound coloration by the speaker in both cases, solid body EUB and acoustic DB amplified.
For this case a modeling after an acoustic bass miced and pickuped for a solid body EUB would be almost as good as the amplified acoustic DB (if it is well made and tailored to the EUB).
You can feel the missing (or better different) feedback to the string by the more difficult to start string and the enhanced sustain due to a lower damping by the higher reflection at the bridge feet.
So, like Francois said, higher damped strings can compensate a bit for that.
BTW, the sound does not radiate primarily from the sound holes, this is only true for the lowest vibrational mode and partially for some of the next higher ones, but mainly from the area of the top. With higher modes the pressure in the box is almost unchanged, so hardly any output from the f-holes for these modes compared to the top dispersion.
I think we can't talk about without references. I like EUB sound more than DB, because EUB didn't have room reverb sound and room resonanse, and I can use vst reverb forexample. It more adjustible variant for me.
But if you need all DB resonans, even if it noisy and ugly. beter to use DB. EUB+fx sounding more studio version of the DB.
But if you need all DB resonans, even if it noisy and ugly. beter to use DB. EUB+fx sounding more studio version of the DB.
It does happen though. Ease of travel is probably a major factor. Here's an example:
Then my example was incorrect. But I still think it's easy to imagine an acoustic band where the AUB is the only thing amplified, just like there exists coffee house gigs where an ABG is the only thing amplified.
Like I said, ease of travel can be a major consideration.
Like I said, ease of travel can be a major consideration.
EUB will never sound exactly like a double bass. You can get close, as in a double bass with a good pickup and amp, but it is what it is. I've played a Merchant Vertical bass for years, and I have no illusions that it sounds like either of my double basses. What it does is sound good on its own merits. Even Dan Hicks grew to like it, although the way it looks always bothered him.
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what???
Lots and lots of people do this.
Bluegrass and jazz groups are very often seen with EUBs. I've played in two different big-bands with EUB on bass (I was not the bass player). I've played many many gigs with multiple different trad jazz groups with two different bass players who use EUB. It's extremely common in bluegrass. Basically, the only amplified instrument a lot of bluegrassers will allow is the EUB, typically with a small amp which might be battery powered.
There's also a huge difference between using a microphone on a singer and playing an EUB through a whole series of effects. But I won't go there.
I think the thing is to strive to make whatever bass instrument you're playing be a proper bass instrument for the music you're playing. If I show up with a bass saxophone or tuba to a jazz gig, am I supposed to try to make those instruments sound like an upright bass? No, I'm supposed to play the BASS instrument in a way that supports the rest of the band like a bass instrument is supposed to for the particular style and tune.
I don't think replying "it can't be done" to a question "how to do it" is very helpful.
Let's not forget that OP's question was "how to put a little more air"....not "how to reproduce acoustic sound".
My 2 cents: experiment with reverb and EQ (high highs) for the sought-after "air".
Btw.: I have tried number of things to make my solid-body EUB sound closer to DB. The two things which have the biggest impact are 1) upright strings and 2) Ninomute.
Let's not forget that OP's question was "how to put a little more air"....not "how to reproduce acoustic sound".
My 2 cents: experiment with reverb and EQ (high highs) for the sought-after "air".
Btw.: I have tried number of things to make my solid-body EUB sound closer to DB. The two things which have the biggest impact are 1) upright strings and 2) Ninomute.
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I agree that it is useful to actually know how to get a better DB-like sound from an EUB.
First and foremost, IMHO, is having a 3/4 scale and high-quality DB strings that produce the kind of tone you want - the sound of the string is what is being amplified on the piezo, so this alone gets you all the way to sounding like an amplified DB. DB strings are expensive, and they are extremely different from one another - so feel free to spend all your money exploring this step and ignore subsequent suggestions.
Second - there are IRs that you can load into pedals, models that you can load on modelers/amps, and various other forms of digital trickery to employ that are quite effective. The Yamaha silent bass has this stuff baked into it already, but there are lots of ways to hook it into the chain for any EUB. It's for real, too, I literally cried when my Fender Studio 40's "Acoustic Sim (3)" setting made my EUB sound like my old orchestra bass. It's very effective, but yet another rabbit hole.
Third - on the analog side, careful EQ-ing on a good acoustic preamp (Fishman products being the baseline standard of quality, probably), and a touch of room reverb can get you pretty close. Also, if you got an HPF, this is one of the rare circumstances where you may want to turn it down or remove it from the chain, because a lot of people associate the DB sound with the subs and boominess. I still like the HPF for my sound, and I don't like the boominess - but I also don't like muting an EUB, so my opinion isn't the same as everyone else's, maybe that's the sound you are going for.
First and foremost, IMHO, is having a 3/4 scale and high-quality DB strings that produce the kind of tone you want - the sound of the string is what is being amplified on the piezo, so this alone gets you all the way to sounding like an amplified DB. DB strings are expensive, and they are extremely different from one another - so feel free to spend all your money exploring this step and ignore subsequent suggestions.
Second - there are IRs that you can load into pedals, models that you can load on modelers/amps, and various other forms of digital trickery to employ that are quite effective. The Yamaha silent bass has this stuff baked into it already, but there are lots of ways to hook it into the chain for any EUB. It's for real, too, I literally cried when my Fender Studio 40's "Acoustic Sim (3)" setting made my EUB sound like my old orchestra bass. It's very effective, but yet another rabbit hole.
Third - on the analog side, careful EQ-ing on a good acoustic preamp (Fishman products being the baseline standard of quality, probably), and a touch of room reverb can get you pretty close. Also, if you got an HPF, this is one of the rare circumstances where you may want to turn it down or remove it from the chain, because a lot of people associate the DB sound with the subs and boominess. I still like the HPF for my sound, and I don't like the boominess - but I also don't like muting an EUB, so my opinion isn't the same as everyone else's, maybe that's the sound you are going for.
I concur.
My experience has been somehow different here. We (me and our band's sound tech) tried various HPF settings and agreed that setting it between 60-80Hz (cutting fundamental) helped my EUB sound more DBish.
I agree that a lot people associate DB with lows and certain boomines, though. IMO, this lies in the 80-160Hz frequency range (basically second harmonic/first overtone). That's why I usually cut below and above this range (especially low mids in the range of approx. 250-400Hz).
YMMV.
Ps: the issue of significance of the ratio between fundamental and the first overtone has been touched upon by Wasnex in post No. 5 already...
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Wow! I'm definitely didn't advise spend all money on the strings and gear. First of all need to understand what gear already have, maybe you can find some chain. Maybe using audio interface and DAW. DAW may using IRs, reverb, eq, compresion, routing, and many other things. Better experement with before buy expensive stuff.
I repeat the result of my try DB like sound. Playing on Stagg EDB with piezo and mic, and some DAW fx. I think it is good result for begin.
I'm making a joke about the strings, just because DBers spend a lot of gear money on strings. But the strings are important.
