Pythons in Florida

[Dr. Cheese]

Do you really think if hoards of toothless morons were dumping off pit bulls and they were reproducing at an extreme rate taking over the wild kingdom that we wouldn't be having this same discussion? Actually, we probably wouldn't....they'd already be extinguished by now.

In the same light, it would be idiotic, irresponsible owners who are the cause of the problem.

You are right, the feral Pit Bulls would have been controlled quickly because they would have constituted a much more direct threat to humans since they are much faster, more aggressive, and prone to attack things they have no intention of eating. None of which is true of pythons. The slow response to pythons is that they are a far greater threat to wading birds and raccoons than they are even to alligators, let alone people.

Dumping pythons has definitely hurt the Florida ecosystem, and the impact of pythons has to be appressively managed, and the importation and sale of pythons as pets needs to be strictly regulated or perhaps outlawed altogether.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

My sister was telling me about this experiment they are doing with pythons back where I grew up to see if the snakes will survive north of Florida:[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Sterling_Bass]

If the results of that study confirm the ability of pythons to thrive in northern habitats, what do you think will happen? Will the government deal with the overpopulation in Florida to prevent the spread into the Mid-Atlantic states? Sadly, I don't think much will happen. It will just confirm what many people already have observed.

 

[Snakeman1066]

I was going to stay out of this, but decided to chime in...

I am a Herpetologist and i keep a rather huge collection of reptiles including some mild venemous snakes...

Florida is one of only a few states that really has no regulation on what can be imported into it's borders, which is why a lot of reptile keepers live in and work in that state....no to mention the wholesale importers that thrive there...

Texas is another State (where I live) which is also fairly lax on reptiles and other species including big cats...

If you think the problem is due to people letting their pets go you are quite sadly mistaken...while idiots freeing their pets have contributed to the problem, the major issue is... large scale importers who import the Burmese, Ceylon, African Rock, and Reticulated Pythons by the hundreds of thousands each year....imagine if you will 10 thousands warehouses full of thousands of these snakes all destroyed by more than a few hurricanes over the last 20 year period....

there are several laws in effect that police certain species....and it is indeed against the law to transport alot of these species over state lines, the current laws don't do much in regards to other countries....and even when foreign govenments close their borders to exportation smugglers simply take the animal to a destination that is legal to expoert from and send it from there......case and point

the Morelia Viridis formely known as condropython viridis or for the layman the green tree python is highly illegal to export from Australia, but as it also occours in New Guinea and some of the surrounding islands such as biak, fak fak, misool, yapen, etc. that are part of indonesia they are caught and carried to irian jaya and exported from there

snakes can be very rewarding to keep and are in fact one of the only animals that people who are allergic can keep aside from fish....as they are hypoallergenic

the Media will never tell you the good things associated with reptiles, such a cures for cancer, and heart medications which have been developed using isolated proteins in snake venom....they like everything else in the world only want to focus on the negative, salmonella, bites, death etc.

more people are killed each year from horse accidents (considered to be the most dangerous domestic animals), dog attacks (10 to 15 deaths reported a year), car wrecks and a whole host of other causes including smoking, alcohol, and guns, than from snake bite...

poorly informed an uneducated not to mention biased state and federal agencies propose laws on a regular basis trying to ban keeping reptiles as pets.....if you were to rely on actual hard evidence and data instead of fear, myth, and B.S. a much better case could be made for banning showers, electrical appliances, cars, cats, dogs, horses, guns, motorcycles, alcohol, cigarettes, and even our public transportation.

in fact since 1978 to present only 5 deaths have been recorded by constriction of a large snake in the U.S., and three of these incidents were actually caused by Reticulated pythons or Python reticulatus...

Most snakes will avoid humans and flee most encounters unless harrassed....even large constrictors tend to not view people as food or prey items....we just don't smell or look right...

these snakes are commonly found in Burma, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Hainan, Borneo, Celebes, Java, Sumbawa, India....search their stats reports of death by these snakes is extremely low despite all the fake photshopped pictures available on the net. it is very hard for even the largest of snakes to get past an adult human beings shoulders....

humans tend to fear what they do not understand....but ask the country of Australia what happened when they started exporting too many of their native snakes to the pet trade and killing them off wholesale to make room for development.....can you say massive rodent explosion? crops were devestated nationwide...

Snakes play a very important role in the eco system....the were created for one very important role in nature, by design they are the best and most natural enemy of rodents that exist on our planet.

While i agree that some form of regulation needs to be passed to curb the flow of imports of these animals....i hesitate to endorse any such policy as we all know when you give a politician an inch they take several thousand miles....

i did away with most of my larger animals as it is unsafe for even a trained expert to deal with any snake over 8 feet in length by themselves....not to mention the food bill!

these species of large pythons require average temps of 85 to 90 degrees farenheit to even be active any climate that drops to or below 65 degrees farenheit for any length of time will not be readily inhabited by these species as this would cause a host of problems including respiratory illness, inability to digest food (it would rot in their stomachs and cause sepsis and eventually death), and leave them susceptable to disease...snakes do not generate their own body heat as we do they require an outside source of heat to function...

Dr. Cheese the largest clutch of eggs known to be laid by a burmese Python is 107 eggs, the average clutch in the wild is usually 18 to 25, though most of the guys i know that breed under optimal conditions are getting roughly 40 to 45 eggs.

the egss have to be incubated at a constant temps ranging from 84-87 degrees farenheit for roughly two months...significant variation from these temps for any length of time will result in death of the embryo or very low viable hatching rate...

most keepers and professional breeders are actually trying to produce dwarf variations of most of the large python species for the pet trade

i personally believe that private keepers other than zoo's, schools, and research facilites should not be allowed to even keep the species listed below without serious requirements and regulation by some sort of agency

Python molurus bivittatus
Python molurus molurus
Python molurus pimbura
Python reticulatus
Pyton sebae sebae (which has been known to reach over 30 feet)
Python sebae natalensis
Liasis Amethistinus

or these boas

Eunectes murinus
Eunectes notaeus

their food, caging, climate, and handling requirements or more than most can deal with

oh and Dr. Cheese the only boa that is native to Puerto Rico is the Epicrates inoratus or the Puerto Rican Rainbow Boa....they average six feet in length as an adult

you guys should give this a read

http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/unitedstates/fl.shtml

snakes are a very small part of the problem in florida and just the current media darlings after the toddler incident...and the snake eating the alligator incident

truth be told the Brown Tree Snake (Boiga irregularis) is much more of a problem than the Burms or the Retics, as they are devouring native bird populations like mad....

nature has a way of regulating herself.....you can see what happens when man gets involved

and alligators have made a huge rebound, populations are way up from where they were just a few years ago, however the freshwater crocodile is still struggling

can they spread out of southern florida....sure they can.....will they? maybe....

a picture recently came across my desk of an adult Crocodie monitor (Varanus salvadorii) taken by a state D.O.T. employee while doing inspection of a bridge in extreme southern texas, so anything is possible....

as you can read these large snakes have very specific environmental conditions in order to survive...they wouldn't make it in the swamps and Pine Barrens of my East Texas home as it gets too cold in winter months here. Southern Alabama, Georgia, Louisana...maybe but again 65 degrees and under for any length of time and they are dead....

i for one would hate the ability for the general public to keep reptiles as pets to be taken away from them...first it's large constrictors and next it will be little Billy's pet turtle

now some for of my babies...

enjoy

also this only true of North America but for the most part if a snake has round pupils like you and I, they are harmless....

i'm sure there are a ton of typos, and my thoughts could have been better organized (as i was tryiing to remeber previous posts without going back and re-reading them all), but i have had a few pints of Beamish and it's after 1 a.m. here so take my post for what it is

 

[Snakeman1066]

The only local constrictors we have are Black Rat Snakes. They can get 9-10 feet long and are excellent climbers.

Link Removed

Link Removed

if you find one over 6 feet in length there are rewards for such animals, considering most top out at 4 to 5 feet and very rarely exceed 6 feet in length...the record is currently not quite 8 feet!

so if you see a 10 footer catch it!...lol

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I was going to stay out of this, but decided to chime in...

I am a Herpetologist and i keep a rather huge collection of reptiles including some mild venemous snakes...

Florida is one of only a few states that really has no regulation on what can be imported into it's borders, which is why a lot of reptile keepers live in and work in that state....no to mention the wholesale importers that thrive there...

Texas is another State (where I live) which is also fairly lax on reptiles and other species including big cats...

If you think the problem is due to people letting their pets go you are quite sadly mistaken...while idiots freeing their pets have contributed to the problem, the major issue is... large scale importers who import the Burmese, Ceylon, African Rock, and Reticulated Pythons by the hundreds of thousands each year....imagine if you will 10 thousands warehouses full of thousands of these snakes all destroyed by more than a few hurricanes over the last 20 year period....

there are several laws in effect that police certain species....and it is indeed against the law to transport alot of these species over state lines, the current laws don't do much in regards to other countries....and even when foreign govenments close their borders to exportation smugglers simply take the animal to a destination that is legal to expoert from and send it from there......case and point

the Morelia Viridis formely known as condropython viridis or for the layman the green tree python is highly illegal to export from Australia, but as it also occours in New Guinea and some of the surrounding islands such as biak, fak fak, misool, yapen, etc. that are part of indonesia they are caught and carried to irian jaya and exported from there

snakes can be very rewarding to keep and are in fact one of the only animals that people who are allergic can keep aside from fish....as they are hypoallergenic

the Media will never tell you the good things associated with reptiles, such a cures for cancer, and heart medications which have been developed using isolated proteins in snake venom....they like everything else in the world only want to focus on the negative, salmonella, bites, death etc.

more people are killed each year from horse accidents (considered to be the most dangerous domestic animals), dog attacks (10 to 15 deaths reported a year), car wrecks and a whole host of other causes including smoking, alcohol, and guns, than from snake bite...

poorly informed an uneducated not to mention biased state and federal agencies propose laws on a regular basis trying to ban keeping reptiles as pets.....if you were to rely on actual hard evidence and data instead of fear, myth, and B.S. a much better case could be made for banning showers, electrical appliances, cars, cats, dogs, horses, guns, motorcycles, alcohol, cigarettes, and even our public transportation.

in fact since 1978 to present only 5 deaths have been recorded by constriction of a large snake in the U.S., and three of these incidents were actually caused by Reticulated pythons or Python reticulatus...

Most snakes will avoid humans and flee most encounters unless harrassed....even large constrictors tend to not view people as food or prey items....we just don't smell or look right...

these snakes are commonly found in Burma, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Hainan, Borneo, Celebes, Java, Sumbawa, India....search their stats reports of death by these snakes is extremely low despite all the fake photshopped pictures available on the net. it is very hard for even the largest of snakes to get past an adult human beings shoulders....

humans tend to fear what they do not understand....but ask the country of Australia what happened when they started exporting too many of their native snakes to the pet trade and killing them off wholesale to make room for development.....can you say massive rodent explosion? crops were devestated nationwide...

Snakes play a very important role in the eco system....the were created for one very important role in nature, by design they are the best and most natural enemy of rodents that exist on our planet.

While i agree that some form of regulation needs to be passed to curb the flow of imports of these animals....i hesitate to endorse any such policy as we all know when you give a politician an inch they take several thousand miles....

i did away with most of my larger animals as it is unsafe for even a trained expert to deal with any snake over 8 feet in length by themselves....not to mention the food bill!

these species of large pythons require average temps of 85 to 90 degrees farenheit to even be active any climate that drops to or below 65 degrees farenheit for any length of time will not be readily inhabited by these species as this would cause a host of problems including respiratory illness, inability to digest food (it would rot in their stomachs and cause sepsis and eventually death), and leave them susceptable to disease...snakes do not generate their own body heat as we do they require an outside source of heat to function...

Dr. Cheese the largest clutch of eggs known to be laid by a burmese Python is 107 eggs, the average clutch in the wild is usually 18 to 25, though most of the guys i know that breed under optimal conditions are getting roughly 40 to 45 eggs.

the egss have to be incubated at a constant temps ranging from 84-87 degrees farenheit for roughly two months...significant variation from these temps for any length of time will result in death of the embryo or very low viable hatching rate...

most keepers and professional breeders are actually trying to produce dwarf variations of most of the large python species for the pet trade

i personally believe that private keepers other than zoo's, schools, and research facilites should not be allowed to even keep the species listed below without serious requirements and regulation by some sort of agency

Python molurus bivittatus
Python molurus molurus
Python molurus pimbura
Python reticulatus
Pyton sebae sebae (which has been known to reach over 30 feet)
Python sebae natalensis
Liasis Amethistinus

or these boas

Eunectes murinus
Eunectes notaeus

their food, caging, climate, and handling requirements or more than most can deal with

oh and Dr. Cheese the only boa that is native to Puerto Rico is the Epicrates inoratus or the Puerto Rican Rainbow Boa....they average six feet in length as an adult

you guys should give this a read

http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/unitedstates/fl.shtml

snakes are a very small part of the problem in florida and just the current media darlings after the toddler incident...and the snake eating the alligator incident

truth be told the Brown Tree Snake (Boiga irregularis) is much more of a problem than the Burms or the Retics, as they are devouring native bird populations like mad....

nature has a way of regulating herself.....you can see what happens when man gets involved

and alligators have made a huge rebound, populations are way up from where they were just a few years ago, however the freshwater crocodile is still struggling

can they spread out of southern florida....sure they can.....will they? maybe....

a picture recently came across my desk of an adult Crocodie monitor (Varanus salvadorii) taken by a state D.O.T. employee while doing inspection of a bridge in extreme southern texas, so anything is possible....

as you can read these large snakes have very specific environmental conditions in order to survive...they wouldn't make it in the swamps and Pine Barrens of my East Texas home as it gets too cold in winter months here. Southern Alabama, Georgia, Louisana...maybe but again 65 degrees and under for any length of time and they are dead....

i for one would hate the ability for the general public to keep reptiles as pets to be taken away from them...first it's large constrictors and next it will be little Billy's pet turtle

now some for of my babies...

enjoy

also this only true of North America but for the most part if a snake has round pupils like you and I, they are harmless....

i'm sure there are a ton of typos, and my thoughts could have been better organized (as i was tryiing to remeber previous posts without going back and re-reading them all), but i have had a few pints of Beamish and it's after 1 a.m. here so take my post for what it is

Thanks alot, I loved herpetology as a kid, but I am a historian now. I knew there was alot I didn't know. Thanks so much for your information!

 

[Stu L.]

Snakeman, you have gators?!? Awesome. I am terrified of sakes. Always have been, always will be. I can't help it. Awesome post, I was thinking you would be involved at some point

 

[Snakeman1066]

my place is 320 acres, i have 4 ponds (man-made) on the property the lagest covers six acres and the smallest really only a half acre in size...lol, but each is dedicated (for the most par to a specific acquatic or semi acquatic reptile) one being the american gator as you put it...lol

 

[Stu L.]

I knew you were a Herpetologist, but did not realise the extent. Awesome, and remind me not to fish at your place

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Snakeman, given your information, it would seem that Pythons are really pushing it living in the Everglades since the December to March period down there is well below 85-90 degrees on average. Really the snakes might be marginally able to survive coastal Georgia and the lower coast of SC, Alabama , Mississippi and Louisiana, but could not penetrate the interior at all. The only other possibility in the US would be the desert SW of Arizona and California, but since the reptile importing business is not strong there, a real population developing there is not likely, IMO.

 

[Quadcam]

my place is 320 acres, i have 4 ponds (man-made) on the property the lagest covers six acres and the smallest really only a half acre in size...lol, but each is dedicated (for the most par to a specific acquatic or semi acquatic reptile) one being the american gator as you put it...lol

only 320 acres? pffft LOL
seriously, I'm jealous.... could you tell us what each of those snakes are in the pics

 

[EddieN]

...Most people kill snakes on sight because they automatically assume it's venomous. Here in Florida we have at least 45 different species of snakes. Out of these 45 species, only 6 are venomous. They are the Copperhead, Cottonmouth, Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake, Timber Rattlesnake, Dusky Pygmy Rattlesnake, and the Eastern Coral Snake.

As you can see if you do run into a snake the odds are actually in your favor that it is actually a non-venomous species. Learn how to identify the venomous ones and you will never have to kill a snake out of fear again.

Eastern Coral Snake - Coral Snakes occur throughout the entire state including the northern keys. The Coral Snake is a relative of the cobras, people believe its bite nearly always is fatal. While its bite is serious and should receive immediate medical attention, statistics suggest that the bite of the Coral Snake is less threatening than the bite of a Diamondback Rattlesnake.

I've lived in FL for over 30 years but had my first encounter ever in the wild two weeks ago with the coral's non-venomous look-a-like, the scarlet king. It was pretty funny, us crossing paths & me in panic mode trying to run that goofy rhyme thru my head. Snake & man went on their merry ways unharmed.

 

[Snakeman1066]

only 320 acres? pffft LOL
seriously, I'm jealous.... could you tell us what each of those snakes are in the pics

first Pic is a pair of Ackies or Varanus acanthurus they are a dwarf species of monitor lizard high energy and a blast to keep although their basking spot needs to be in the 104 or 105 degrees farenheit range

second pic is Diablo he is a red phased Amazon Tree Boa or Corallus hortulanus and yes they are arboreal (live in trees)

Third Pic is Kallah she is a Jungle Carpet Pyhton however she is a hybrid of two seperate forms (Morelia spilota cheynei) and Morelia spilit spilota which is actually called a Diamond Python

fourth pic is Bruno and Brutus Mmerican alligators or Alligator mississippiensis we have 5

fifth pic is Spot he is also a colored phase of the Corallus hortulanus of Amazan Tree Boa

sixth pic is Emily (my baby) She is an Emerald Tree Boa or Corallus caninus very nasty long sharp teeth (designed for holding prey while hunting in trees, a good bite from her would do muscle, nerve and tissue damage)

seventh pic is Lemon Drop she is a Green Tree Pyhton or Morelia viridis and she is from the Sorong area of Irian Jaya or west Papua New Guinea (this is a pic of her in Juvenile form)

eigth pic is another Amazon Tree Boa she is also a colored phase beautiful red and orange we call her ketchup

inith pic is another amazon Tree Boa his name is Hunter and I'm hoping to get some awesome offspring once he breeds ketchup (Amazon tree boas are highly polymorphic) which means they come in many many colors and you never know what the heck your going to get when you breed them....you breed two reds and end up with no red babies....their genetics are insane

last pic is Lemon Drop once she came into her adult coloring...you can't quite see it but the dorsal markings are very blue as is her tail.....in the wild they use their tail like a lure (wiggles like a worm) and when something goes for it wham dinnertime.....

I am big softie for Arboreal snakes....and this is not even 1/20th of what i own snake wise....

i can post more if anybody wants to see

 

[Snakeman1066]

Snakeman, given your information, it would seem that Pythons are really pushing it living in the Everglades since the December to March period down there is well below 85-90 degrees on average. Really the snakes might be marginally able to survive coastal Georgia and the lower coast of SC, Alabama , Mississippi and Louisiana, but could not penetrate the interior at all. The only other possibility in the US would be the desert SW of Arizona and California, but since the reptile importing business is not strong there, a real population developing there is not likely, IMO.

they can survive lower temps, just not for long....and anything below 65 degrees for an extended period of time would kill them

optimal temps are in the high 80's this gives them enough body heat to be active....though large snakes rarely move more than 200 yards or so a day and even less if they have eaten a large meal, also these snakes can go upwards of six months on one good sized meal if need be.

if they could find a stable underground temp in the mid to high seventies they could probably brumate during the winter months and be just dandy but really anyting less than 80 degrees and they become much less active....and temps below that they run the risk of their food going rancid in their bellies....

 

[Dr. Cheese]

they can survive lower temps, just not for long....and anything below 65 degrees for an extended period of time would kill them

optimal temps are in the high 80's this gives them enough body heat to be active....though large snakes rarely move more than 200 yards or so a day and even less if they have eaten a large meal, also these snakes can go upwards of six months on one good sized meal if need be.

if they could find a stable underground temp in the mid to high seventies they could probably brumate during the winter months and be just dandy but really anyting less than 80 degrees and they become much less active....and temps below that they run the risk of their food going rancid in their bellies....

This reminds me of the articles recently published about the super huge snake fossil found in Colombia. Scientists said that a 50 ft. one ton snake could have only survived if that region were even hotter than it is now.

 

[THand]

Thanks for all of the information, Snakeman!

 

[cassanova]

Snakeman, given your information, it would seem that Pythons are really pushing it living in the Everglades since the December to March period down there is well below 85-90 degrees on average.

I don't know what December through March is like in S. Florida but I do know here in the Tampa Bay area it doesn't go below those temps for far to long a period of time. It's not uncommon for us to have 82 degree Christmas's here and by March we're usually back in the high 70's lower 80's. At best its only cold for 3 to 4 weeks out of the year, IMO and IME from being down here since 1981 the norm seems more like 2 - 3 weeks of "cold" weather.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I don't know what December through March is like in S. Florida but I do know here in the Tampa Bay area it doesn't go below those temps for far to long a period of time. It's not uncommon for us to have 82 degree Christmas's here and by March we're usually back in the high 70's lower 80's. At best its only cold for 3 to 4 weeks out of the year, IMO and IME from being down here since 1981 the norm seems more like 2 - 3 weeks of "cold" weather.

Except for the Miami airport, I have not been south of Orlando in Florida. All three times I went to Orlando it was in the winter, and twice there was cold snap that lasted about a day. By the time I left it was in the 80s.

In the South Carolina Midlands, where I grew up, December temperatures can range from about 70 to maybe a week of very cold weather. The coldest Christmas I remember if SC was about 6 or 9 degrees Farenheit, but most are closer to 55-60. Reptiles will brumate pretty steadily from the middle of November until March or April depending on the weather although it can get hot enough sometimes for lizards to run around in Christmas or January for a few days before it cools down again.

I think it would be very hard for a large python to survive those conditions given what Snakeman has said.

 

[Nedmundo]

Great thread. I've been fascinated with snakes since childhood, and I thank the knowldegable folks for all the information. I regularly visit Ft. Myers Beach, FL, so I'm glad to know what (or who) I might encounter.

For a great article about the spread of invasive species in Florida, try to find the April 20 edition of the New Yorker magazine. The full piece isn't available on line, but ere's an abstract:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I wonder how the severe cold snap is affecting the invasive reptile populations in Florida? I keep hearing reports of iguana falling out of trees in Florida. None of the news reports note that iguanas are an invasive species. Indigenous lizards are brumating at this time. Miami is projected to have its first freeze in 20+ years this weekend. It probably will not be long enough to thin python populations in that area and the Everglades, however, I would guess that the pythons being observed in Aiken, SC won't make it this winter.

There are some indigenous species that are threatened like sea turtles and manatees because of the below normal water temperatures.