Q: Novak Bs/Ds w/ Filter Based pre

[Ibanezer83]

Hey y'all I was hoping that some Preamp experts/ Phil Lesh obsessives could share some info/experiences.

I have a custom bass being made for me and its going to have Novak Bs/Ds' installed with the coil tap on each pickup and a pickup pan control. I was initially set on having it completely passive but the more I hear various performances /reviews with Filter-based pres, the more it seems like what I've been looking for for a long time. I like those notched /growly type of nasally tones, as well as the bright ones and Dub ones.

My question is- since the Novaks are going to be coil tapped separately would the different tap impedances create inconsistencies and weirdness with a filter-based pre? Would I need a buffer for each pickup?

I would like a very simple tone control system. Is there a specific brand or layout that would be recommended?

Thanks in advance for any shared knowledge or experiences!

 

[bholder]

I've got no clue myself yet, I have two pairs of the Novak BS/DS and one pair of the Guild reissues - all still uninstalled - so subbed for learnin'.

 

[claudel]

I have a JTEX Distiller on the way, which is "a tunable, active low-pass filter & preamp for bass guitars, with selectable resonance via a 3-position Q-Switch. The cutoff frequency range is from 250Hz to 8kHz, with a 12dB/octave slope."

I'll check in after I get it installed...

I'm not using it with that particular pickup, but I'll chip in, anyway.

It should work nicely with the Novak DS/BS. If I like it in the bass I'm gonna use it in I'm probably gonna get a second one for a different bass along with a single Novak DS/BS

It's nice and simple. One knob for cutoff & 1 switch to set resonance

You should be able to use 2, one for each pickup with MV & pan.

Jerry ( vendor ) is occasionally on this forum and is quite helpful as far as wiring specifics & components.

I've bought his "Indicator" which is a quite useful battery checker/reminder.

 

[sunbeast]

Hey y'all I was hoping that some Preamp experts/ Phil Lesh obsessives could share some info/experiences.

I have a custom bass being made for me and its going to have Novak Bs/Ds' installed with the coil tap on each pickup and a pickup pan control. I was initially set on having it completely passive but the more I hear various performances /reviews with Filter-based pres, the more it seems like what I've been looking for for a long time. I like those notched /growly type of nasally tones, as well as the bright ones and Dub ones.

My question is- since the Novaks are going to be coil tapped separately would the different tap impedances create inconsistencies and weirdness with a filter-based pre? Would I need a buffer for each pickup?

I would like a very simple tone control system. Is there a specific brand or layout that would be recommended?

Thanks in advance for any shared knowledge or experiences!

The switch will change what the preamps see, but shouldn’t be of any concern as all of these preamps should be able to handle different passive sources. I believe the original Lesh/Casady basses used active/buffered pickup panning after the filters so that is something to consider.

Your obtainable options I’m aware of these days are the Jtex Distiller mentioned above, the Lusithand NFP or the ACG/John East EQ-01 (unless ACG has sold out of those). There is also a guy called “BoogieMan” on EBay that makes Alembic preamp clones (I used one of his individual filter pres years ago when they were priced more reasonably, but found headroom could be an issue with more standard high output pickups, YMMV).

Im assuming you’d want individual filters per pickup as it is a much more versatile arrangement:

The ACG pre has individual filters for each pickup and a buffered blend.

Lusithand offers a version of its preamp with dual filters and a buffered blend (regular Dual-NFP).

With the Jtex you’d have to buy two individual filters and mix them with some other scheme- passive mixing with a 25K/50k or so blend or dual volume control after the filters would likely work fine (you want that small value since you are blending two buffered/active sources), though not as smoothly as an active blend would- then followed by a matching 25K-50Kohm master volume control if you use a blend. You could also buy (Bartolini makes some options for example) or build some sort of active mixing solution for more seamless blending.

The Boogieman dual filters I assume are made with active panning as in the Alembic they copied.

I haven’t tried the Jtex yet (though I want to!), but do have an ACG pre in a bass and a single Lusithand in an external box. The Lusithand and the Jtex both have higher frequency sweeps in their filters, which make a big difference for some of those bright/aggressive tones. The ACG takes on this top end with a separate HPF filter and gain control- so you still can dial in as much brightness as you want but it sounds different than via the LPF controls since there is no resonant peak at the HPF cutoff (you can sort of emulate this by honing in on a smaller frequency range with the ACG HPF then boosting the gain, but it isn’t the same, particularly when you already have peaks dialed in on the LPF controls). The ACG uses peak knobs to go anywhere from mild to extreme resonant peak, but the extreme peaks to my ears are a little more tame-sounding than those of the Lusithand or Alembic I previously used.

I love the ACG filter pres in its own right, but to me it sounds almost too refined to nail a lot of those more nasally or gritty Alembic tones while the more basic Lusithand pre I have sounds a little closer to me to what my old Alembic PJ set with filter could sound like. Presumably the Jtex is also closer to the Lusithand in that regard. If a smoother and more refined version of a filter pre is something you are interested in, the ACG excels at that IMO!

 

[Ibanezer83]

I have a JTEX Distiller on the way, which is "a tunable, active low-pass filter & preamp for bass guitars, with selectable resonance via a 3-position Q-Switch. The cutoff frequency range is from 250Hz to 8kHz, with a 12dB/octave slope."

I'll check in after I get it installed...

I'm not using it with that particular pickup, but I'll chip in, anyway.

It should work nicely with the Novak DS/BS. If I like it in the bass I'm gonna use it in I'm probably gonna get a second one for a different bass along with a single Novak DS/BS

It's nice and simple. One knob for cutoff & 1 switch to set resonance

You should be able to use 2, one for each pickup with MV & pan.

Jerry ( vendor ) is occasionally on this forum and is quite helpful as far as wiring specifics & components.

I've bought his "Indicator" which is a quite useful battery checker/reminder.

Ok great, thanks. I like the simplicity. I'll be looking into Jtex and possibly try to contact him for his insight.

 

[sunbeast]

Ok great, thanks. I like the simplicity. I'll be looking into Jtex and possibly try to contact him for his insight.

If you are only looking at a single filter to run both pickups into it'll be alot more limiting than the typical Alembic-type filter tone which really shines from using seperate filters per pickup and blending them at the end. Still if you just want a taste the Jtex filters are the cheapest option right now so a good way to see if its what you want (you can even mount one in an external box for testing purposes as I have done with a few of these types of pres)

 

[Ibanezer83]

The switch will change what the preamps see, but shouldn’t be of any concern as all of these preamps should be able to handle different passive sources. I believe the original Lesh/Casady basses used active/buffered pickup panning after the filters so that is something to consider.

Your obtainable options I’m aware of these days are the Jtex Distiller mentioned above, the Lusithand NFP or the ACG/John East EQ-01 (unless ACG has sold out of those). There is also a guy called “BoogieMan” on EBay that makes Alembic preamp clones (I used one of his individual filter pres years ago when they were priced more reasonably, but found headroom could be an issue with more standard high output pickups, YMMV).

Im assuming you’d want individual filters per pickup as it is a much more versatile arrangement:

The ACG pre has individual filters for each pickup and a buffered blend.

Lusithand offers a version of its preamp with dual filters and a buffered blend (regular Dual-NFP).

With the Jtex you’d have to buy two individual filters and mix them with some other scheme- passive mixing with a 25K/50k or so blend or dual volume control after the filters would likely work fine (you want that small value since you are blending two buffered/active sources), though not as smoothly as an active blend would- then followed by a matching 25K-50Kohm master volume control if you use a blend. You could also buy (Bartolini makes some options for example) or build some sort of active mixing solution for more seamless blending.

The Boogieman dual filters I assume are made with active panning as in the Alembic they copied.

I haven’t tried the Jtex yet (though I want to!), but do have an ACG pre in a bass and a single Lusithand in an external box. The Lusithand and the Jtex both have higher frequency sweeps in their filters, which make a big difference for some of those bright/aggressive tones. The ACG takes on this top end with a separate HPF filter and gain control- so you still can dial in as much brightness as you want but it sounds different than via the LPF controls since there is no resonant peak at the HPF cutoff (you can sort of emulate this by honing in on a smaller frequency range with the ACG HPF then boosting the gain, but it isn’t the same, particularly when you already have peaks dialed in on the LPF controls). The ACG uses peak knobs to go anywhere from mild to extreme resonant peak, but the extreme peaks to my ears are a little more tame-sounding than those of the Lusithand or Alembic I previously used.

I love the ACG filter pres in its own right, but to me it sounds almost too refined to nail a lot of those more nasally or gritty Alembic tones while the more basic Lusithand pre I have sounds a little closer to me to what my old Alembic PJ set with filter could sound like. Presumably the Jtex is also closer to the Lusithand in that regard. If a smoother and more refined version of a filter pre is something you are interested in, the ACG excels at that IMO!

Woah thanks for all the info on the different options. I'm definitely looking more towards Jtex as it's simple and more easily able to get the extreme notched corner frequencies and my 2 band on my Musican is almost too much for me when playing live.

I've seen the AGCs before but they're just too expensive for too much I don't want to fuss with. I'm really kind of torn over whether I should get one or two filters as I want simplicity, but like versatility. I figure between the taps and one filter I should do pretty well and can probably install a second filter down the road if I find I need it...

I guess I should talk to Jtex about whether a buffered pan is required...this is the kind of stuff I'm unsure about. Thanks for the insight!

 

[sunbeast]

Woah thanks for all the info on the different options. I'm definitely looking more towards Jtex as it's simple and more easily able to get the extreme notched corner frequencies and my 2 band on my Musican is almost too much for me when playing live.

I've seen the AGCs before but they're just too expensive for too much I don't want to fuss with. I'm really kind of torn over whether I should get one or two filters as I want simplicity, but like versatility. I figure between the taps and one filter I should do pretty well and can probably install a second filter down the road if I find I need it...

I guess I should talk to Jtex about whether a buffered pan is required...this is the kind of stuff I'm unsure about. Thanks for the insight!

If you are only using a single filter for two pickups a buffered blend isn't necessary, but any passive mixing solution before the preamp will result in loading between the pickups which will affect the end tone. When you use dual filters the filters themselves are acting as buffers between the two pickups and so you don't get that same pickup loading when blending.

 

[Ibanezer83]

If you are only using a single filter for two pickups a buffered blend isn't necessary, but any passive mixing solution before the preamp will result in loading between the pickups which will affect the end tone. When you use dual filters the filters themselves are acting as buffers between the two pickups and so you don't get that same pickup loading when blending.

Ah, okay got it. That helps. So the taps will create different loading though..because they are before anything . Or can they be wired to tap after they both go through the filter first?

 

[sunbeast]

Ah, okay got it. That helps. So the taps will create different loading though..because they are before anything . Or can they be wired to tap after they both go through the filter first?

The taps on those are basically choosing between two totally different pickup winds, so they need to be right at the pickup. When I was talking about loading I was referring to the use of passive pickup mixing (either two volumes or a passive blend control before the preamp), as with a single preamp you need to mix the pickups before the pre rather than after. The taps are a separate thing and not really an issue as far as the preamp goes (though yes they will change how the pickups blend with each-other to a degree in a passive blending scheme)

 

[sunbeast]

The downside to active mixing is you can’t have an active/passive option on the bass, which is a big deal for some people (one downside to the ACG and Lusithand all-inclusive preamps). You could actually make a passive option like a pickup selector switch alongside the pickup blend that would still work in passive mode but you would lose the blend control in passive.

 

[sunbeast]

So to clarify- if you use a filter pre per pickup, the preamp itself will buffer the pickups from each other. If you use a single filter pre with the pickups mixed together passively, then the pickups will load each-other and the coil taps may affect the way the pickups blend to a degree (though the taps won’t cause any sort of issue with the preamp). A big part of the idea behind the Lesh/Casady experimental preamps was to eliminate passive loading losses, so to me the buffered blend (and to a lesser degree the dual filters) is important to my concept of those instruments, but if you just want a taste of that resonant filter tone then a single filter with passive pickup mixing beforehand is cheaper and easier and will work it’ll just be a bit less refined sounding (darker, less extreme peaking, etc)

 

[mellowgerman]

Fun stuff! Here's a photo of my '62 EB-0, semi-Lesh-tribute bass. Those may not look like Novak BS/DS pickups, but they are, custom made in guitar-humbucker sized casings. My controls are dual JTEX Distillers and I can't say enough good things about them! Amazing units for the money. At the time of this photo, the way the bass was wired was (Novak to Distiller to 25k volume)x2 to output jack. The volume controls are an EMG 25k concentric stack. The resulting tone was Lesh city! Mine didn't have the taps for the Dark Star voicing, but they would not create any issues should you want them in there. The Distillers also have internal trim pots for gain, so if you find you prefer running one pickup in Bisonic mode and one in DarkStar mode, you could always boost the internal pot for the Dark Star to match their output OR if you have the volume controls or blend control after the Distillers to take advantage of the low-impedance buffering of the Distillers, you could just balance them there.

Full disclosure, this bass now has a vintage Hi-A pickup in the bridge position instead of the bridge Novak. I was curious how it would blend with the neck Novak and I loved the result. Still a very Leshy tone, but a little less quack when both pickups are on full, which is just my preference.

Finally, I've had both ACG EQ-01 and EQ-02 preamps over the years, but I would say I prefer this dual Distiller setup. Super intuitive, super affective, super versatile, and relatively simple.

 

[sunbeast]

Fun stuff! Here's a photo of my '62 EB-0, semi-Lesh-tribute bass. Those may not look like Novak BS/DS pickups, but they are, custom made in guitar-humbucker sized casings. My controls are dual JTEX Distillers and I can't say enough good things about them! Amazing units for the money. At the time of this photo, the way the bass was wired was (Novak to Distiller to 25k volume)x2 to output jack. The volume controls are an EMG 25k concentric stack. The resulting tone was Lesh city! Mine didn't have the taps for the Dark Star voicing, but they would not create any issues should you want them in there. The Distillers also have internal trim pots for gain, so if you find you prefer running one pickup in Bisonic mode and one in DarkStar mode, you could always boost the internal pot for the Dark Star to match their output OR if you have the volume controls or blend control after the Distillers to take advantage of the low-impedance buffering of the Distillers, you could just balance them there.

Full disclosure, this bass now has a vintage Hi-A pickup in the bridge position instead of the bridge Novak. I was curious how it would blend with the neck Novak and I loved the result. Still a very Leshy tone, but a little less quack when both pickups are on full, which is just my preference.

Finally, I've had both ACG EQ-01 and EQ-02 preamps over the years, but I would say I prefer this dual Distiller setup. Super intuitive, super affective, super versatile, and relatively simple.

View attachment 4615210

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Very cool implementation!

 

[magyk8ball]

Ive got experience with the acg, but unfortunately not with those pickups. But can recommend the acg eq-01 if you want filter based pre.

you shouldnt have any issues at all with the impedance change. I have a 3 way toggle on a MM shaped p/u that runs into a blend with a piezo for the bridge p/u, no issues (with or without the piezo installed) with impedance. The pre handles it

simple and filter based really dont end up in the same sentence. But i dont think id run both pickups blended into a single filter, that would kind of defeat the advantages gained with filter based pres (usually neck set to something kind of thumpy and the bridge something kind of clangy/bright, blend between the 2.
Filter based can be super complex, especially if youre splitting both pickups. Its different, and theres about as many good and useable sounds as there are terrible sounds.

 

[Ibanezer83]

Fun stuff! Here's a photo of my '62 EB-0, semi-Lesh-tribute bass. Those may not look like Novak BS/DS pickups, but they are, custom made in guitar-humbucker sized casings. My controls are dual JTEX Distillers and I can't say enough good things about them! Amazing units for the money. At the time of this photo, the way the bass was wired was (Novak to Distiller to 25k volume)x2 to output jack. The volume controls are an EMG 25k concentric stack. The resulting tone was Lesh city! Mine didn't have the taps for the Dark Star voicing, but they would not create any issues should you want them in there. The Distillers also have internal trim pots for gain, so if you find you prefer running one pickup in Bisonic mode and one in DarkStar mode, you could always boost the internal pot for the Dark Star to match their output OR if you have the volume controls or blend control after the Distillers to take advantage of the low-impedance buffering of the Distillers, you could just balance them there.

Full disclosure, this bass now has a vintage Hi-A pickup in the bridge position instead of the bridge Novak. I was curious how it would blend with the neck Novak and I loved the result. Still a very Leshy tone, but a little less quack when both pickups are on full, which is just my preference.

Finally, I've had both ACG EQ-01 and EQ-02 preamps over the years, but I would say I prefer this dual Distiller setup. Super intuitive, super affective, super versatile, and relatively simple.

View attachment 4615210

View attachment 4615220

Alright! Thanks for sharing! Very cool EB and pretty much ideal IMO.

The main argument (I tell myself) for having one filter per pickup is that I could set one pickup for a nice Dubby boom and the other with clear highs but I'm sure theres much more in between. But theres got to be a lot tones to be had between two taps and a Filter. I'm really going to be torn about whether to get one or two filters when I need to make the call...

I've always been a big fan of a blend knob, but if anyone has strong arguments for why two volumes are better, I'm all ears. I've always found the blend to be more intuitive, quick and easy to get used to. Pickup Blend, Master Volume and Master filter and call it a day seems to be my go to..

 

[sunbeast]

Alright! Thanks for sharing! Very cool EB and pretty much ideal IMO.

The main argument (I tell myself) for having one filter per pickup is that I could set one pickup for a nice Dubby boom and the other with clear highs but I'm sure theres much more in between. But theres got to be a lot tones to be had between two taps and a Filter. I'm really going to be torn about whether to get one or two filters when I need to make the call...

I've always been a big fan of a blend knob, but if anyone has strong arguments for why two volumes are better, I'm all ears. I've always found the blend to be more intuitive, quick and easy to get used to. Pickup Blend, Master Volume and Master filter and call it a day seems to be my go to..

Passive blend + master volume put before the filter will mean additional loading on the pickups and a darker tone than dual volumes before the filter. You could put a blend before the filter and then a Master Volume after the filter (since the filter will output a low impedance signal you can use a 25K master volume after the filter).

I’ve personally never liked the way passive blend controls work because the pickup loading makes the useful sweep of the controls very small (most of the audible changes happen in a very small portion of the sweep). I find with passive mixing that dual volumes spread out the useful blend sweep and make it easier to fine-tube settings (particularly using linear-taper volume controls). Active blend controls work the way I expect a blend control to work (meaning you can hear an incremental blend happening across the entire sweep), but in a passive situation I much prefer dual volumes

 

[mellowgerman]

If you do end up going with a single filter, you will have to mix the pickups before the filter (whether you do it via two volumes or a blend). Either way, you technically have 2 pots loading your signal. The blend is essentially two stacked volumes that function opposite from each other with the turning of a single knob, though the actual volume change for each pickup happens from 0-5 and 5-10 respectively. Hope that makes sense, but either way, as mentioned above, you would be loading your pickups and limiting your usable blend spectrum. If you did want to go with a blend-to-filter setup, you would want to put your master volume after the filter, to at least avoid adding a 3rd pot of loading before the filter.

In any case, there is a lot of magic to be tapped into by going with dual filters. You can certainly roll one pickup off to a deep dubby tone and keep the other bright and crisp, but combined with individual Q-switches, there are so many drastically different tones to be tapped into in-between the extremes. Wherever your filter is set, the 3 position Q-switch allows you to boost at said frequency (low Q, mid Q, or high Q), which really changes the resonance/character of the pickup, but also opens up a whole new realm of blending possibilities.

If I solo the bridge pickup for example and roll off the filter half-way, then switch to high Q, I get a sort of nasally tone, that I probably would never use or find pleasant on it's own. When you mix that with the unfiltered signal of the neck pickup though, that nasally sound becomes more of a frequency/resonance emphasis in the overall tone, creating what my ears hear as a completely unique sound, otherwise unachievable with those 2 pickups.

You could think of dual filters like 3-D glasses... you need both eyes for the exciting, depth-perception-altering magic to happen. If you close one eye, everything is just tinted green or red (which can be a neat effect in it's own way, but kind of one-dimensional). When you have both open though, everything starts bending and reaching out to you! In addition to that magic, you also have your pickups' pure signals, buffered and unloaded, whether you choose to go with 2 volumes after the filters or a blend and a volume after the filters.

 

[claudel]

I have a JTEX Distiller on the way, which is "a tunable, active low-pass filter & preamp for bass guitars, with selectable resonance via a 3-position Q-Switch. The cutoff frequency range is from 250Hz to 8kHz, with a 12dB/octave slope."

I'll check in after I get it installed...

I'm not using it with that particular pickup, but I'll chip in, anyway.

It should work nicely with the Novak DS/BS. If I like it in the bass I'm gonna use it in I'm probably gonna get a second one for a different bass along with a single Novak DS/BS

It's nice and simple. One knob for cutoff & 1 switch to set resonance

You should be able to use 2, one for each pickup with MV & pan.

Jerry ( vendor ) is occasionally on this forum and is quite helpful as far as wiring specifics & components.

I've bought his "Indicator" which is a quite useful battery checker/reminder.

JTEX Distiller installed.

Short review: Easy install, sounds good. Nice & simple...

 

[Ibanezer83]

JTEX Distiller installed.

Short review: Easy install, sounds good. Nice & simple...

Sweet. Congrats! It seems like a great alternative to a normal tone knob ( not a huge fan).
Unfortunately for me you got the last one , and he doesn't know if or when he'll be making more... Well I guess I'm going passive for now...