Qualified Service Techs and Ability to Repair Newer Technology

[agedhorse]

I receive comments all the time about how modern amps are disposable and not repairable. Usually is starts with "my techs said it was disposable because of the technology", but in reality what they really mean is that they (the tech) is under-qualified to repair something they lack the education, tools, experience and skill set to repair. Sometimes, the tech is a DIY hobbiest, but that's usually not stated up front IME. Then it goes down the road with complaining that the company won't support or repair the amp, nor will it walk their under-qualified tech step by step through the repair that they shouldn't be doing in the first place. No company wants to spend the resources trying to walk an under-qualified tech through a repair (takes far longer than just doing the repair themselves), not to mention the danger and liability because they don't understand the safety aspects of what they are working on. Their interactions generally from this point into playing the blame game.

Here is a good example of a high technology amp (NeoPak 3.5) that came in for a SMPS (switchmode power supply) failure. This is exactly the sort of thing that I mentioned above, complicated technology, and an early implementation (over 20 years old!). The customer sent it here after local service techs told him it was unrepairable and disposable in spite of it being a bit of a collector's piece, as it was the second commercially successful (and reliable) SMPS based bass amp. Yes, there were a few others, but not many and for the most part not commercially successful/reliable other than the Walter Woods amps. Both the NeoPak and WW used SMPS and class AB power amps.

That said, the amp (which was in collector's cosmetic condition, easily worth ~$500) was repaired without any issues, the total cost was $165. Also, not a single electrolytic cap was even close to needing replacement (there goes that urban myth)!

THIS is the difference between a QUALIFIED versus an UNDER-QUALIFIED tech. My labor rate is probably twice that of the under-qualified tech, yet the qualification factor means that I spend much less time on the repair, the amp gets repaired properly, and the cost to the customer is less. Remember this when you look to get something (anything) repaired, amps, speakers and especially instruments. A qualified luthier for example, even if expensive, is worth paying more for because their greater skill set really does have more value... especially when working on expensive instruments. A bargain isn't much of a value when they return it in worse condition than they received it in.

 

[Major Seven]

This goes for cars also.

 

[agedhorse]

This goes for cars also.

Totally. It goes for a lot of things, which is why I brought it up as an example.

 

[RedWire75]

I receive comments all the time about how modern amps are disposable and not repairable. Usually is starts with "my techs said it was disposable because of the technology", but in reality what they really mean is that they (the tech) is under-qualified to repair something they lack the education, tools, experience and skill set to repair. Sometimes, the tech is a DIY hobbiest, but that's usually not stated up front IME. Then it goes down the road with complaining that the company won't support or repair the amp, nor will it walk their under-qualified tech step by step through the repair that they shouldn't be doing in the first place. No company wants to spend the resources trying to walk an under-qualified tech through a repair (takes far longer than just doing the repair themselves), not to mention the danger and liability because they don't understand the safety aspects of what they are working on. Their interactions generally from this point into playing the blame game.

Here is a good example of a high technology amp (NeoPak 3.5) that came in for a SMPS (switchmode power supply) failure. This is exactly the sort of thing that I mentioned above, complicated technology, and an early implementation (over 20 years old!). The customer sent it here after local service techs told him it was unrepairable and disposable in spite of it being a bit of a collector's piece, as it was the second commercially successful (and reliable) SMPS based bass amp. Yes, there were a few others, but not many and for the most part not commercially successful/reliable other than the Walter Woods amps. Both the NeoPak and WW used SMPS and class AB power amps.

That said, the amp (which was in collector's cosmetic condition, easily worth ~$500) was repaired without any issues, the total cost was $165. Also, not a single electrolytic cap was even close to needing replacement (there goes that urban myth)!

View attachment 7377377

THIS is the difference between a QUALIFIED versus an UNDER-QUALIFIED tech. My labor rate is probably twice that of the under-qualified tech, yet the qualification factor means that I spend much less time on the repair, the amp gets repaired properly, and the cost to the customer is less. Remember this when you look to get something (anything) repaired, amps, speakers and especially instruments. A qualified luthier for example, even if expensive, is worth paying more for because their greater skill set really does have more value... especially when working on expensive instruments. A bargain isn't much of a value when they return it in worse condition than they received it in.

I had a guitar amp that required repair so I took it to a well respected store in town with repair services. It sat for two weeks before the tech called me to say they couldn't repair it because it had this "weird EF86" tube in it no one uses anymore and they didn't have a known good spare to swap in.

After they gave up I called another store with a stellar repair reputation that told me they don't repair "boutique s**t" because it's just that, "s**t".

The amp was a Bad Cat. This was with Bad Cat willing to fix it under warranty if I shipped it back or have the tech call them and they would walk them through it.

I did finally find someone in town to fix it to save me having to ship the chassis.

Seems to be par for the course.

 

[Jugghaid]

 

[Old Fart]

It goes for a lot of things

Yes it does. It goes for pretty much everything. Cheaper usually = more expensive. This is even more true with skills as technical as amp tech.

Probably not a very perfect analogy but the same principle: I got tired of looking through my drawer of screwdrivers for a good tip, not finding one, then buying another $20 set of 15 screwdrivers. So I bought a set of Snap-On screwdrivers. If I had done that when I was 20 years old, I'd have saved myself both money and time. And I'd have a better-working screwdriver and more effective screwdriver the whole time.

Also, FWIW, I called Mesa customer service in the last week with a problem. Their solution made me very happy. I'm not offering details because what they did for me was beyond their stated warranty service. Andy knows the story.

 

[UntitledProject]

A good shortcut only takes twice as long.

You always have to do it right in the end.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I receive comments all the time about how modern amps are disposable and not repairable. Usually is starts with "my techs said it was disposable because of the technology", but in reality what they really mean is that they (the tech) is under-qualified to repair something they lack the education, tools, experience and skill set to repair. Sometimes, the tech is a DIY hobbiest, but that's usually not stated up front IME. Then it goes down the road with complaining that the company won't support or repair the amp, nor will it walk their under-qualified tech step by step through the repair that they shouldn't be doing in the first place. No company wants to spend the resources trying to walk an under-qualified tech through a repair (takes far longer than just doing the repair themselves), not to mention the danger and liability because they don't understand the safety aspects of what they are working on. Their interactions generally from this point into playing the blame game.

Here is a good example of a high technology amp (NeoPak 3.5) that came in for a SMPS (switchmode power supply) failure. This is exactly the sort of thing that I mentioned above, complicated technology, and an early implementation (over 20 years old!). The customer sent it here after local service techs told him it was unrepairable and disposable in spite of it being a bit of a collector's piece, as it was the second commercially successful (and reliable) SMPS based bass amp. Yes, there were a few others, but not many and for the most part not commercially successful/reliable other than the Walter Woods amps. Both the NeoPak and WW used SMPS and class AB power amps.

That said, the amp (which was in collector's cosmetic condition, easily worth ~$500) was repaired without any issues, the total cost was $165. Also, not a single electrolytic cap was even close to needing replacement (there goes that urban myth)!

View attachment 7377377

THIS is the difference between a QUALIFIED versus an UNDER-QUALIFIED tech. My labor rate is probably twice that of the under-qualified tech, yet the qualification factor means that I spend much less time on the repair, the amp gets repaired properly, and the cost to the customer is less. Remember this when you look to get something (anything) repaired, amps, speakers and especially instruments. A qualified luthier for example, even if expensive, is worth paying more for because their greater skill set really does have more value... especially when working on expensive instruments. A bargain isn't much of a value when they return it in worse condition than they received it in.

It has been said, you pay one for what they know not what they do.

 

[Major Seven]

Yes it does. It goes for pretty much everything. Cheaper usually = more expensive. This is even more true with skills as technical as amp tech.

Probably not a very perfect analogy but the same principle: I got tired of looking through my drawer of screwdrivers for a good tip, not finding one, then buying another $20 set of 15 screwdrivers. So I bought a set of Snap-On screwdrivers. If I had done that when I was 20 years old, I'd have saved myself both money and time. And I'd have a better-working screwdriver and more effective screwdriver the whole time.

Also, FWIW, I called Mesa customer service in the last week with a problem. Their solution made me very happy. I'm not offering details because what they did for me was beyond their stated warranty service. Andy knows the story.

I used mySnap-On screwdrivers for 45 years until they wore out and Snap-On gave me a new set.

 

[BAG]

Probably not a very perfect analogy but the same principle: I got tired of looking through my drawer of screwdrivers for a good tip, not finding one, then buying another $20 set of 15 screwdrivers. So I bought a set of Snap-On screwdrivers. If I had done that when I was 20 years old, I'd have saved myself both money and time. And I'd have a better-working screwdriver and more effective screwdriver the whole time.

Buy once, cry once.

 

[Number179]

Interesting and useful perspective to hear, since I'm on the other side as purely a consumer.

I'm curious where you would draw the line with diminished returns when it gets to the point it's relevant. For example, someone who comes in with a piece of junk (objectively) who thinks it's worth way more than it is, they also have the "nostalgic or sentimental" value they assign to it and want you to fix it. How do you balance, and then communicate that to a customer?

 

[Major Seven]

Interesting and useful perspective to hear, since I'm on the other side as purely a consumer.

I'm curious where you would draw the line with diminished returns when it gets to the point it's relevant. For example, someone who comes in with a piece of junk (objectively) who thinks it's worth way more than it is, they also have the "nostalgic or sentimental" value they assign to it and want you to fix it. How do you balance, and then communicate that to a customer?

I worked in a shop that did a $130,000.00 restoration of a car that could have be found in good condition for $5,000.

 

[bylar13]

Price is only an issue in the absence of value.

In a consumer driven culture, "new" has greater value.

 

[Nebadon2000]

A bargain isn't much of a value when they return it in worse condition than they received it in.

I learned that lesson in my early 20's; I was at a friends Party and mentioned I was taking my car in for a Tune-up and was going to cost $45 and a friend of his spoke up and said I do Mechanics and will only charge $25; I then took my Car to him a couple days later and went off with a friend running some errands while he worked on my car; picked up car and drove away an immediately noticed it was running worse than when I brought it to him

Turned around went back and told him it was running bad; He looked me dead in the eye and said "What did you expect for $25"

I don't remember a lot back in my 20's but that is still seared in my Brain and yes it ended up costing me $70 for tuneup

 

[winston]

@agedhorse - do you basically just recommend contacting mfr. for tech recommendations? Then the issue is what to do with defunct companies (like Eden)?

I've been burned multiple times by electronics repair people and "luthiers" who had very good reputations in the local area. I recently discovered the hard way that the guitar/bass fixit shop I've used a few times does world-class fret and woodwork, but the electronics guy is an opinionated idiot who decided not to replace the pots I asked him to because "I thought it's wasteful"…the spray he put in them wore off and they were scratchy a month later. Similarly he decided not to shield the instruments I brought in because "he doesn't thing shielding makes a difference if you do the wiring right". Guess what - that bass still picks up unwanted noise…then there's the guitar that I asked him to duplicate the wiring on but he did it Les Paul style (individual volumes don't work when switch is in "both pickups on" position).

So the question is "how to weed out the jokers who have good online reviews and word of mouth"?

 

[bdplaid]

I fully agree with Andy's comment, but with repair shops so unqualified, even those recommended by the manufacturer, what's a bass player to do? I wish there was some means to know who is qualified and who isn't. I put some of that on the manufacturers who list unqualified shops as recommended for repairs, but if the industry could come up with some means to verify a shop's qualifications, I'd use that shop even if I had to ship it across the country.

 

[Heiwa]

But what about digital modelers and all those boring pedals with 100 lights, 3 USB ports, a screen and a toaster.. I don't think those are easy to repair or find spare parts..

 

[LowTorque]

Interesting and useful perspective to hear, since I'm on the other side as purely a consumer.

I'm curious where you would draw the line with diminished returns when it gets to the point it's relevant. For example, someone who comes in with a piece of junk (objectively) who thinks it's worth way more than it is, they also have the "nostalgic or sentimental" value they assign to it and want you to fix it. How do you balance, and then communicate that to a customer?

You give them an honest and fair price and let them decide.

If it helps them grieve for example it may not be much money in their view.

 

[Fender_Bender]

Parts availability seems to scupper many an electronic repair these days.

 

[bass12]

@agedhorse - do you basically just recommend contacting mfr. for tech recommendations? Then the issue is what to do with defunct companies (like Eden)?

I've been burned multiple times by electronics repair people and "luthiers" who had very good reputations in the local area. I recently discovered the hard way that the guitar/bass fixit shop I've used a few times does world-class fret and woodwork, but the electronics guy is an opinionated idiot who decided not to replace the pots I asked him to because "I thought it's wasteful"…the spray he put in them wore off and they were scratchy a month later. Similarly he decided not to shield the instruments I brought in because "he doesn't thing shielding makes a difference if you do the wiring right". Guess what - that bass still picks up unwanted noise…then there's the guitar that I asked him to duplicate the wiring on but he did it Les Paul style (individual volumes don't work when switch is in "both pickups on" position).

So the question is "how to weed out the jokers who have good online reviews and word of mouth"?

This is what I was going to mention. I'll gladly go to (and pay for) the superior tech. The problem is being sure of who the superior tech is.