Can someone please give me a technical, quantitative or semiquantitative reasoning on why Acoustic Image should give a more pure sound for double bass than a 100 watt Fender Rumble used with a pre-amp? I would appreciate if someone can explain based on specifications, design, speaker configuration, etc. rather than just assume that cost correlates with sound quality, or just based on subjective observations.
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Quantitative reasoning on Acoustic Image vs Fender Rumble
- Thread starter jmcbass
- Start date
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
- 23,076
- 46,028
- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
I was thinking maybe Clarus SL and Doubleshot, but am open to suggestions about what would have best sound for jazz combo in small to medium size venues with piezo pickup. Again, would appreciate understanding technical explanation of advantages vs 100 watt Rumble. The rumble has enough volume for my needs. Are there technical reasons why the AI would be expected to have more pure sound?
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
- 23,076
- 46,028
- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
For starters, any well designed 500 watt amp will have more headroom than a 100 watt one, and running out of headroom is maybe the easiest way to lose "purity."
I've never even seen a Rumble 100 and have never looked into the nuances of the design at all, so I can't help much beyond that. If you want to rationalize buying the Clarus the lifetime warranty would be one clear advantage, and the variable high pass filter might be another. Buying on specs rather than listening tests has rarely worked out at all well for me, best of luck if that is your situation though!
I've used both the clarus/doubleshot combo and the Rumble 100 with upright. The rumble is a good amp for upright and if you're happy with it there's no reason to switch. The AI stuff presents the bass in a more natural way IME. The rumble to me brings out the piezo twang a bit and can sound compressed when pushed. The clarus is not a particularly loud or punchy amp compared to other amps of similar wattage. It's got a natural, open, laid back sound with wide lows.
There's a ton of info on the DB side amps forum. You should look there.
There's a ton of info on the DB side amps forum. You should look there.
Thanks for the input. I think it is fair to say that I am trying to rationalize buying an AI knowing that I can return it if it doesn't wow me. However, I would rather not have to return it (inconvenient for me and especially for the vendor), but I would not want to keep it if it didn't sound notably better than the Rumble 100 that I already own. It is not practical for me to be able to listen to them side by side with my bass prior to buying it. So I am trying to get a better idea from this forum if people expect that it will sound notably better than my Rumble. That is my dilemma. And as far as high pass filter, my current preamp (Fishman Platinum Stage) has a decent one.
Well, you're going to get a more open, detailed, less punchy, less pointed sound from the AI stuff with a bit more but not a ton more volume. The lows will sound better at high volume. You may or may not like it better depending on the bands you play with and the sound you're going for. Only one way to find out for sure...
Something to keep in mind. The Clarus has way more power than the Rumble 100, but the DoubleShot is one of the least efficient speakers you can buy. IMHO, don't be seduced by high power alone.
The DoubleShot is rated for 600W with max SPL of 118dB, which IMHO is not very loud. Probably fine for jazz trio, but it may not be loud enough for big band in a large venue. Some will think 118dB is fine--I do not. I generally want a rig that can hit about 124dB. It's not that I generally need to play that loud, but I do think headroom and dynamic range are important factors with upright bass.
Let's estimate the sensitivity rating of the DoubleShot. 1-600W represents a decibel change of 27.78dB. Let's round that up to 28dB. Now subtract from 118dB and you get a sensitivity rating of about 90dB 1W/1m. This rather low sensitivity is the price you pay for a small cab to have decent LF extension.
Now let's figure out the sensitivity rating necessary for 100W to push a cab to the same SPL (118dB). 1-100W represents a decibel change of 20dB. Subtract that from the max SPL of the DoubleShot (118dB) and you get 98dB. The idea here is 100W into a cab with a 98dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating will play as loud as the DoubleShot with 600W.
My guess is the Rumble 100 cab has a sensitivity rating somewhere between 94-96dB 1W/1m, so max SPL is probably around 114 to 116dB. The Clarus should push the DoubleShot a bit louder, but don't expect it to be way louder.
Something to consider is the Clarus can be used to drive a more efficient cab (or 2) if you need more volume.
Overall I think the AI rig is much higher quality. But it is not super loud and due to the way it disperses sound, it may not punch through very well in a highly reverberant room.
Bottom Line: I think it would be great as a grab-&-go combo amp, but it may run out of headroom if you have fairly loud gigs. Whether the AI is a good choice depends on your needs, how you plan to use it, and how easily you can pay for it.
For comparison, the Genzler 350 combo also has a max SPL of about 118dB. But you can add up to two extension cabs. With one extension, the max SPL should go up to about 124dB, and with three it would be up around 126dB. This sort of modular rig may be a better choice if you do some louder gigs.
Good luck!
The DoubleShot is rated for 600W with max SPL of 118dB, which IMHO is not very loud. Probably fine for jazz trio, but it may not be loud enough for big band in a large venue. Some will think 118dB is fine--I do not. I generally want a rig that can hit about 124dB. It's not that I generally need to play that loud, but I do think headroom and dynamic range are important factors with upright bass.
Let's estimate the sensitivity rating of the DoubleShot. 1-600W represents a decibel change of 27.78dB. Let's round that up to 28dB. Now subtract from 118dB and you get a sensitivity rating of about 90dB 1W/1m. This rather low sensitivity is the price you pay for a small cab to have decent LF extension.
Now let's figure out the sensitivity rating necessary for 100W to push a cab to the same SPL (118dB). 1-100W represents a decibel change of 20dB. Subtract that from the max SPL of the DoubleShot (118dB) and you get 98dB. The idea here is 100W into a cab with a 98dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating will play as loud as the DoubleShot with 600W.
My guess is the Rumble 100 cab has a sensitivity rating somewhere between 94-96dB 1W/1m, so max SPL is probably around 114 to 116dB. The Clarus should push the DoubleShot a bit louder, but don't expect it to be way louder.
Something to consider is the Clarus can be used to drive a more efficient cab (or 2) if you need more volume.
Overall I think the AI rig is much higher quality. But it is not super loud and due to the way it disperses sound, it may not punch through very well in a highly reverberant room.
Bottom Line: I think it would be great as a grab-&-go combo amp, but it may run out of headroom if you have fairly loud gigs. Whether the AI is a good choice depends on your needs, how you plan to use it, and how easily you can pay for it.
For comparison, the Genzler 350 combo also has a max SPL of about 118dB. But you can add up to two extension cabs. With one extension, the max SPL should go up to about 124dB, and with three it would be up around 126dB. This sort of modular rig may be a better choice if you do some louder gigs.
Good luck!
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