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Question about True Bypass and signal degradation

E

excane

Inactive
Aug 23, 2005
3,857
14
New York, NY
#1
Have any of you setup a pedalboard with a true bypass looper, and actually experiemented to hear the sonic differences of TB vs Non-TB pedals?

I was playing around this morning, and I lined up about 8 Boss pedals in a loop and there was definitely a noticeable difference between running through the FX (off) and when bypassed with the loop.

Even with only 3 or 4 NonTB pedals, I really cannot distinguish a difference in tone, volume, etc.

Just curious as to what others think and your personal setups involving how many pedals (TB and NON-TB) pedals you choose to place in different loops.
 
#3
Passive or active bass? A passive bass can gain back highs when run through a Boss pedal.

I never run though more than say three pedals so I can't say I have ever noticed a difference between TB and non-TB.
 
#6
My bass seems to sound better with a buffer than without. Most of my buffers, I think, are pretty solid and I don't normally run through more than 3 at any time, though. The max with my current setup is 2, but my buffer/looper is always on at the front of my chain.

I wonder if it is just one buffered pedal in your setup that is the offending pedal? Have you tried to isolate 1 bad one?
 
#8
Honestly, I think the overwhelming majority of bass players need not concern themselves with whether or not their pedals are true bypass or whether they need buffering. Most players go straight to the amp with a minority using 2 or 3 pedals. It's really rare (in the grand scheme) to see a bass player with a big, complex board (this forum excepted!).

The ultimate criteria should be: Do I hear a problem or does my employer/colleague hear a problem? If not- no problem! If, however, you notice an unwelcome difference in your "clean" tone after making a set-up change - then it's time to explore whether true bypass loopers or buffering is necessary.

Long cable lengths (I'm talking over 35 feet or so), multiple pedals, or pedals with poor bypass buffers can definitely degrade your tone. Particularly high frequencies. When you find a frequency or volume loss- you really need to experiment to find what is creating the loss & then come up with a strategy to correct it.

Generalizations like "Oh yeah, you have to have true bypass!" or "Cables don't matter - I've never noticed a difference." really aren't helpful to people trying to solve a problem. Once you've actually experienced an issue or noticed an improvement with a product - then you have some experience to base your claims on! (Albeit, hopefully remaining objective...)

In my personal experience, I have had degradation issues with pedals featuring bad bypass. My Mu-Tron III+ comes to mind. Multiple BOSS pedal chains have also sounded very unnatural to me when bypassed. I use a large pedalboard & 90% of the time play on large stages. My cable runs get pretty long- close to 50' from bass to amp/di. I've had to learn, through a combination of trial & error as well as good & bad advice, how to keep my tone pure and solid while using a complex set-up. For me, this involves the use of true bypass loops and a dedicated high-quality buffer. Not everyone needs such complexity, however.

Studio work presents a set of related and unique challenges. When recording, I need to satisfy my own standards of tonal quality - as well as very finicky engineers and producers. Basically, I have no excuse for signal degradation. And when you're soloed in the control room of a professional studio - you need to sound the best that you possibly can. 90% of this is technique and experience. The other crucial 10% is properly maintained and set-up gear! In this context, true bypass looping and proper buffering not only ensures that my bass sounds great - but it helps to appease over-anxious engineers scared of using too many devices in a signal chain. Are they crazy? Maybe, but you still have to work with them!

Ultimately, let your ears be your guide, but stay open & experiment with different approaches and technology. You might be surprised by what you were missing, or find that your setup was already perfect for you!

Am I suggesting you try that $300 ac cord? Yes, I am. (Of course it's complete b.s., but by trying it out - now you know!!!!!) ;)
 
#9
Ok, what really matters with NonTBP and TBP is the buffer used. Some boss buffers reportedly suck tone. Have I found it? No. I think a lot of it comes with hype. A lot of pedals are true bypass now because it is simply easier to impliment. Back when Boss was started, DPDT and 3PDT switches were much more expensive and a transistor bypass was easier.

With transistor bypass, you are effectively using a series of transistors as a switch which will not conduct when off(bypass). However, some of your guitar signal is still conducted, which may cause tone loss.

However, with TBP, with all the pedals bypassed, they effectively act as wires, which could affect your tone if they are long enough. However, it would take an awfully long wire to cause loss(transmission theory) so that point is null IMHO.

So I guess I agree. Use your ears. I think to many guitarists are concerned with cable length and NonTBP tone suck problems, when what really needs to be done is sitting with your amps eq.

Just MHO and IME :)
 
#11
excane said:
Yes, it's something I've been doing for a while. It seems to just get worse the more NonTB effects I line up in a row, like the affect is accumulating. It's not one pedal that's the offender by itself.
Click to expand...

That is a statement of truth. There are a few genuinely bad bypass pedals out there, but the majority (including most Boss) are plenty good on their own. It's only when you have a long chain of them that they tend to suck tone badly. The effect is in fact cumulative.

FWIW having a long chain of individually true bypass pedals can also come with its own tone troubles, due to the dramatic change in impedance as you dis/engage multiple pedals.

The problem is most at issue with passive instruments; active instruments are also affected, but much less so.
 
#12
I've experimented with this in an unintentional way. After a gig where I had a bunch of trouble with my board and eventually had to just go straight to my amp, I bought a little TBP looper and put my whole board in the loop.

The point was just to be able to go straight to the amp if anything went wrong with my board, but the side benefit was I got to compare my direct tone with my tone through my effects.

I noticed little to no difference in tone. And that was with a few pedals that were NOT true bypass. I had two Tech21 pedals on my board at the time (XXLB & BDDI) and neither of them seemed to effect the tone at all. I also had two pedals where I was unsure if they were true bypass or not.

That's not to say that I didn't find some tone suckers, just that none were on my board at the time. I have an old DOD Performer phaser that sounds great but is pretty bad in terms of bypass. And a few others that I can't recall at the moment.

All that said, I think sometimes bass players (and guitar players who are worse about it) are a bit ridiculous in wanting a "pure" tone. First of all, an electric instrument through an amplifier - the tone is colored to begin with.

Not to mention, in a live band performance the nuances of bass tone are lost on the crowd. If you are a solo player, I can understand a bit more.

Of course my comments should be taken with a grain of salt since with my new originals band I'm using a board with an Boss OC-2 and a Moog LPF. ;)
 
#13
+1 to everything above. I have played both in home studio and live environments through signal chains that were generally between 5 and 10 pedals, most of which were not true bypass. The boss pedals I have always found to be way cleaner than their reputation gives. I think most people get caught up in this "true bypass or bust" mindset/craze, and never really gave it a shot.

There have been, however, two pedals that I have used and loved that suck tone HORRIBLY, and those are the 105Q Bass Crybaby, and the EHX BMS (original big one). Those two pedals are like throwing a blanket over my cabs. But they're so damn good at what they do (and nothing else exactly does it) that I put up with it when I have to.
 
#14
bongomania said:
...

FWIW having a long chain of individually true bypass pedals can also come with its own tone troubles, due to the dramatic change in impedance as you dis/engage multiple pedals.

...
Click to expand...

Absolutely! That is why a good understanding/utilisation of a high quality buffer is recommended when putting together a complex tb set-up.

While my board religiously employs true bypass techniques, the heart of the system is an adjustable "always-on" buffer. I even keep it on when I (increasingly rarely) use an active instrument.




Another element often ignored is "feel" or "response". I have often found that long pedal chains (aside from tonal issues) have an affect on how my rig responds in a feel context. This is entirely subjective & extremely difficult to measure, but I imagine many of you have found the same phenomenon. As big a fan of effects & tone options as I am, there is a certain magic of plugging straight in to an amp or di! It may be largely psychological, but unfortunately, ethos does inform our senses!

Every once in a while, by necessity or design, I do a session or gig with nothing but a cable. A) It's fun having to rely on my fingers and instrument for any "special effects" B) I get to tune my ears to how my instrument and amp really sound! I think it's a very worthwhile exercise for us effects-junkies to practice. Plus, I think technique is best developed without too much processing. i.e. compression or dramatic eq that can mask playing deficiencies.

I'm getting off topic, aren't I?
 
#15
+100 to everything above, and thank you for all the advice and discussion.

I am by far, no stranger to complex pedalboard setups, for those of you that have seen my board(s)

The reason I started this thread (with all the info I already know about TB vs NONtb) was to get a discussion going for the more experienced of us out there who have solved these issues using the least complex solution possible. Simplicity is always the best answer.

Just to give you an idea, this is my current pedalboard from the pedalboard thread:

Let me explain the signal chain and why this has worked for me for almost a year after months of arranging, rearranging, etc.
The bass enters the loooper.
Loop 1 is Whammy--->Prunes&Custard--->Emma--->Landmine
Loop 2 is Depth Charge--->Bassdrive--->Sansamp--->DOD--->Choralflange--->Boss delay

Loop 1 has 3 NON-TB pedals (whammy, Emma, Landmine)
Loop 2 has the same number of NON-TB (Sansamp, DOD, Boss)

So at the most, my signal is running through 3 NON-TB pedals.

I'm currently building a second board with more guitar needs in mind and that's where I really started experiementing with all of my old Boss pedals sitting around and lining them up.

I've found that I'm not a fan of the individual loopers (think the long strips for a loop for each pedal) That's just a personal preference.

After I get my second board layed out, I'm going to order the same looper (loop-master) a 2 loop with tuner out because I've found it's the most versatile for my needs. Loop 1 of my current board gets used the least with the whammy and Emma (more of "specialty" FX for the songs I play)

boardright.jpg


board001.jpg


Continue.... :)
 
#16
I got a good deal on a korg ax unit... went to try it out through my eden vt260 and warwick fortress active.. that pedal broke my tone. I immediately disconnected it. I'm going to have to look into an a/b for the sake of keeping my dry tone, which I am in love with, and adding some effects to the mix... if I choose to keep this processor.

On my old ampeg rig, this same processor IMO helped the over all tone. As it got stolen, I missed it and re-purchased it with high expectations. I guess it doesn't get along with the eden all too well. It doesn't break my heart, but i'm so used to it and it has some effects that I have been unable to duplicate with T.B. pedals.
 
#18
Cool thread. I also play guitar, and it's funny seeing the guys on the HRI boards go nuts over bypass, heh!

Interesting note: One rig builder (LA Sound Design), with a client base full of pro touring musicians, actually considers the much-maligned Boss TU-2's buffer to be good enough to drive an entire rig. Go figure!

My issue isn't so much tone suck as it is noise, though.
 
#19
I find that hooking up more than 12 or so pedals always seems to add "challanges". Doesn't matter if they are TB or buffered or a mix. I always use quality cables.

So my approach now is to redesign my whole system. I am between projects and have been experimenting like mad. Once I finally determine the final order of my pedals (90% there), I will use a Loop-master Eight-Loop Effect Switcher to control various pedal configurations, with no more than 3 pedals per loop. The preliminary configuration looks like this, but I know of a few changes that will be made due to a couple items that I have coming my way:

Main Board
Loop 1: EHS BMS
Loop 2: EHX POG--> BassBalls
Loop 3: Crybaby-->Wilson Wah (ordering soon)--> MXR Auto Q
Loop 4: Hematoma--> Psylocybe Phaser
Loop 5: BassDrive--> MXR Flanger
Loop 6: MXR Chorus--> MXR Phase 90
Loop 7: To satellite board
Loop 8: Boss GEB7 EQ
On main board but after LoopMaster: Option 5 Phaser--> Electronix Submarine--> Volume Pedal

Of course if this doesn't work, I'll hire Will Ferrell to add more cowbell...
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#20
lowbass68 said:
I find that hooking up more than 12 or so pedals always seems to add "challanges". Doesn't matter if they are TB or buffered or a mix. I always use quality cables.
Click to expand...

This makes sense to me. I generally use at most 2 effects and never have "challenges". But a lead guitar player I played with had at least 8-10 boss pedals and got tons of noise.

lowbass68 said:
Of course if this doesn't work, I'll hire Will Ferrell to add more cowbell...
Click to expand...

Why does it have to be either/or? The eight loop switcher AND more cowbell :bassist:
 

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