Double Bass Question for iAmp users

[drurb]

DRURB, I think I understand what you're saying and why.

But just for the record, when I was using the original Rev Solo, I sent an email to EA asking about how to control speaker cone dance and what I thought might be too much excursion, and this is exactly what John Dong suggested I do. Set the LO CONTROL at 40 Hz and cut.

I tried it for a tune or two, didn't like the effect on my tone, and just went back to bypassing the EQ.

Oh, do take a look here! The solution John offered you was not a very good one. My interactions were with Gary Gibilisco, the designer of the iAmp. By the way, even after the "fix" applied to my iAmp, I still use a high-pass filter set at 40 Hz. No more cone dance.

 

[Phil Redman]

That micro amp is $530 3lbs and 175 watts at 8 ohms and will still need an external preamp with a double bass. The Clarus is $700 just under 5lbs and 250 watts at 8 ohms and doesn't need anything else.

IMO neither will do loud gigs well at all.

The Focus I is $1200 and 450 watts. The iAmp 500 is about $850 and 350 watts.

The iAmp 800 is $1200 and 500watts, the Focus 1R is 450 watts and $1200.

Buy what you want, sounds like you've made up your mind already but anyone else reading this thread may want to ask around and see how many double bassists in any genre of playing have traded out their AI amps for the iAmp and been happy about it.

Currently I'm running a single Wizzy but would like to get another for loud gigs. I suppose either the EA 500 or a Clarus would cover the double-Wizzy configuration. The QSC is just too much of a pain to lug around--especially for one Wizzy. It was cheap though! I've always had the impression that EA was a more rockin' amp and AI had the upper hand in finesse. Maybe not.

Thanks,
Phil

 

[Phil Redman]

I think it is important to try out whatever amp you are gonna get before you purchase it. I have never needed a preamp with my Iamp. I have used it mainly for straight ahead jazz gigs and the bass sound is great and natural with my old realist and Epifani Ul210. I don't turn the amp up that loud and I get most of my sound from my bass, so I mainly use the amp to boost my stage volume a little and get a very clean signal to the house. That being said, I still have not had the best of luck cranking it up really loud with my realist pickup when I am not in the house. However, with my Underwood it will get very loud and still sound good (but underwoody). I guess my point is, that every bass is different and you have to try a lot of stuff out to find out what works for you and your bass. I have found that EA amps are very natural sounding and give me the most acoustic sounding amp sound with the least amount of knob tweaking. I am waiting to get a copy of some live recordings I 've done recently so that I can attempt to post some sound clips. Good luck on your purchase.

Joel

I'd love to A/B the stuff but have no opportunity to do it. Sounds like my needs are more volume intensive then what you're describing. Thanks for the input.

Phil

 

[Phil Redman]

I could run my existing Fishman preamp (which I like well enough) into a Focus SA. I see by the specs that it takes 250 mV to drive it to full power, which I think is reasonably close to the output of the Fishman. Has anyone out there tried this combo? Any problems driving 2 ohms (two Wizzies)?

Thanks,
Phil

 

[Uncletoad]

Another fly in the ointment. I had a fellow come by the other day with a Clarus II and a Wizzy. He was using a Realist on his midcentury Juzek. It sounded terrible. Honky, mid heavy, no low end but lots of sub sonic speaker flap.

I think the realist wasn't the right pickup for that bass. I suggested a Full Circle. When I tried my Focus 2RIII instead of the Clarus II it sounded better but still not good. Didn't have another cab around to swap out though.

Might be useful to hear from other Wizzy owners on their pickups and amps to see what they've found works well for them.

I never liked the Wizzy much. That driver in the M line cab is real nice for DB but in the original cab left me cold. Many around here like it.

I've written a bunch of posts about playing loud. Might be worth reading. I 'm pretty confidant about my ability to play loud and sound good regardless of whether I play anything worth hearing or not.

The iAmp has an extremely useful, versatile, and flexible parametric equalizer. No offense meant to anyone, but with so much flexibility, it is well worth learning to use it correctly. Often, the presence of so many controls leads to poorer sound than would otherwise be achieved if those controls are placed in the hands of those who are not facile with them. I do understand that some would rather buy a different amplifier than deal with "all those knobs."

You know, I'm a pretty smart guy. I was a front of house guy for years, been playing gigs for 25 years and been in music retail for almost 2 decades. I've got a lot of musical miles on my boots and lot of time on a bunch of gear.

My point is that if I have a hard time getting a good sound out of an EQ, then most of the rest of the bass playing public is gonna do much worse.

 

[bolo]

Oh, do take a look here! The solution John offered you was not a very good one. My interactions were with Gary Gibilisco, the designer of the iAmp. By the way, even after the "fix" applied to my iAmp, I still use a high-pass filter set at 40 Hz. No more cone dance.

Yes, thanks Doc. I do remember that thread of yours. Heck, if it weren't for your posts, I'd still be calling them subsonics.

Still waiting for that stand-alone HPF thang to go public too BTW ...

 

[flatback]

in my experience you can't judge any part of your SG effectively if you are starting with a Realist. There are just so many ways that Pick up can sound bad that to judge an amp or preamp or cab purchase starting with that pick up is a crap shoot.
+1 on the single best knob being a HP filter. It just does the job for DB.

I dug the amp/finances breakdown earlier in the thread. It cuts out the "I'm just jones-ing for it" obfuscation and gets to the features VS. price balance.
For DB the FC into the Focus is damn hard to beat.

 

[drurb]

My point is that if I have a hard time getting a good sound out of an EQ, then most of the rest of the bass playing public is gonna do much worse.

I think it is true that most of the bass playing public will not know how to use a parametric eq properly. I cannot speak to or for your own expertise. Whatever your displeasure with the iAmp, I doubt that the source is the basic amplifying circuit. I know that, given my own decades-long experience in auditory science, I can identify a frequency band by ear. I have achieved good results with the iAmp's eq in all sorts of rooms. I believe there are effective methods by which others can learn to do the same moderately quickly. It does take some investment of time.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

I've done it with almost the opposite approach from DRURB's, with the same end result. I'm a caveman luddite throwback, with absolutely no background in auditory science. I usually run away screaming from anything with more than two knobs on it. So it's somewhat surprising to me that I've been able to consistently get good sounds from my iAmp, by starting out flat, twiddling and tweaking, until it sounds good. I've never made the speaker dance, wiggle, fart, or gyrate in any manner. And if I should choose to use my AMT mic by itself, it works out fine, which has not been the case with some other rigs.

I dunno, sounds good to me. Maybe I'm not picky enough. I just wish I could be as nonchalant about DB strings

 

[Uncletoad]

fwiw I've been an awful lot harder on the iAmp than I ever intended. I really only meant to point out my trading it for the Focus.... but I got horribly carried away.

They are well made and excellent pieces of gear. I don't want to discourage anyone from buying their stuff. Of all the bass amps on the market it's right up there with the best of them.

 

[bolo]

I had a fellow come by the other day with a Clarus II and a Wizzy. He was using a Realist on his midcentury Juzek. It sounded terrible. Honky, mid heavy, no low end but lots of sub sonic speaker flap.
...
Might be useful to hear from other Wizzy owners on their pickups and amps to see what they've found works well for them.

I never liked the Wizzy much. That driver in the M line cab is real nice for DB but in the original cab left me cold.

I have used a Wizzy for almost three years now and I think I know exactly what sound you are talking about. Run for cover baby ...

I was fitting a Rev Solo II prototype that eroy sent me ages ago on my bass. As I sanded and fitted, I was getting exactly what you described: "Honky, mid heavy, no low end ..."

Still working on the optimal fit for that pickup actually.

BUT ...

The Wizzy sounds totally different to me with other input sources. Like say my DB and a good mic (no pickup) through a Solstice and an iAMP-200.

Or w/ my Lakland Bob Glaub. Basically a '64 Precision clone w/ Lindy Fralins. It is strung w/ LaBella flats. The Wizzy barks like it should, but doesn't honk. With some thumb downstrokes and the fake tubes of a SansAmp BDDI, the Wizzy is buttery smooth and has very respectable low end heft for such a small cab.

So it can sound just like you described, but it can also sound quite different, and not honky at all to my ears. All this is with the EQ flat (bypassed actually).

-----------------------------------------------

I do appreciate all the comments from experienced Focus users in this thread. On my tryout list for sure.

 

[jimclark68]

"Might be useful to hear from other Wizzy owners on their pickups and amps to see what they've found works well for them."

I've mentioned my experiences in couple of other threads, but I didn't track them down... from the ground up, I use a Wizzy 112, AI Clarus III 2R, Bassmax on the G side, and a fairly new Eastman hybrid. I've not found a way to tame the mid-range honk of my Wizzy. With the pickup in the E side of the bridge, the low-mids jump out, on the G-side, the high-mids. I have to use the notch filter with the pickup on the E side. On the G side, I can get away with using no filter or the low cut filter. Even using the notch filter to try to even out the hump, it just doesn't do it, and the phase reversal when the filters are on changes the sound in a way that is not pleasing to my ear. The saving grace, and this is the point I've made in other threads, is that the louder the band gets, the better the Wizzy performs tone-wise. So I just live with the honk and the fact that it's a compromise both with the cabinet and my pickup. I'm thinking I would really like an M-line, but it looks as though the market is getting ready to be flooded with "Classic" Wizzys... I'd need to sell one to get the other.

 

[drurb]

Okay, hold on here! I have seen no good evidence that any of the frequency-response anomalies reported have anything to do with the Wizzy, per se. They are likely the fault of the source being used. Now, there are at least two ways to determine the source of the reported difficulties. One is to measure the response of the Wizzy itself (preferably in anechoic and reverberant environments). Good luck.

Another is more subjective and far less ideal. It is to integrate across what is heard with different pickups and amps and in different rooms with the Wizzy and compare what is heard to what is heard with those same pickups and amps with other cabinets. Then one can decide if the problems are endemic to the Wizzy.

As bolo said, "So it can sound just like you described, but it can also sound quite different, and not honky at all to my ears. All this is with the EQ flat (bypassed actually)." That's a good clue that the problem in not the Wizzy.

I have not experienced any of the response anomalies that are here being attributed to the Wizzy. I use a properly fitted (by Eric Roy's own hands) Rev. Solo II, an iAmp200, and a Wizzy. I do use the eq. Most of the time, it is set to boost the very low end a bit, to cut by a few dB the octave around 500 Hz, and sometimes a slight boost in bands surrounding 2 kHz and 4 kHz.

No offense, jimclark68, but a Bassmax to my ears on three different basses was essentially a "mid-range honk generator." Yes, I practice what I preach and have made comparisons like the ones I suggested in order to narrow down the source of the problem to the pickup. Once I switched to the Rev. Solo I, the Bassmax was relegated to the gig bag for use in the event of extreme emergencies. That would be only if my Rev. Solo and my two Rev. Solo backups failed!

 

[Phil Redman]

Okay, hold on here! I have seen no good evidence that any of the frequency-response anomalies reported have anything to do with the Wizzy, per se.

For what it's worth I run the Wizzy with a Full Circle and have never experienced any honkiing, farting, flapping, or any other such embarassing sounds at any volume level. Keep in mind that this is with 30 hz high-pass filter most of the time but I've run it without the filter and had no problems.

Thanks,
Phil

 

[bolo]

Phil, yeah I don't actually hear the flapping so much from infrasonics.

I did see them though once when I was in a situation where the lighting on the Wizzy's driver was just right I guess. Plus it was a blues band where the volume was just too much. I could see the surround of the speaker filling up nice and round, like an inflated bicycle tire almost. Scared me pretty bad. So I sent the email to EA I mentioned above.

Anyway, like drurb pointed out a long time ago, it seems to be something that can happen w/ piezos, esp. maybe the bridge mounted variety. And like he said, it's actually more from your fingers hitting the string a certain way during the plucking motion than from the fundamentals of the notes themselves.

Hope I got that right.

 

[bolo]

FWIW, from Bob G's site in reference to the EA CXL-112 cab:

"The Kevlar 12" driver is very smooth with a nice presence bump at 1KHz which conforms to the Euphonic Audio house curve."​

So EA has a "house curve" as it is called. Maybe ... just maybe this is a part of what some people perceive as contributing to the honk factor.

I tend to think it has more to do with the input source myself, as I tried to outline above.

That said, if EA has developed a house curve that is not perfectly flat, I bet it's for good reasons - musically, and scientifically. Like Jim and others have mentioned, all their cabs seem to really work well at being "present" in a dense live setting. I trust the guys at EA and their ears and their expertise. That's why I use their stuff on almost every gig, and I'm pining for more.

Might have to try 'n' pick up one o' them thar AI heads to go with it though ...

 

[drurb]

FWIW, from Bob G's site in reference to the EA CXL-112 cab:

"The Kevlar 12" driver is very smooth with a nice presence bump at 1KHz which conforms to the Euphonic Audio house curve."​

So EA has a "house curve" as it is called. Maybe ... just maybe this is a part of what some people perceive as contributing to the honk factor.

I tend to think it has more to do with the input source myself, as I tried to outline above.

That said, if EA has developed a house curve that is not perfectly flat, I bet it's for good reasons - musically, and scientifically. Like Jim and others have mentioned, all their cabs seem to really work well at being "present" in a dense live setting. I trust the guys at EA and their ears and their expertise. That's why I use their stuff on almost every gig, and I'm pining for more.

Might have to try 'n' pick up one o' them thar AI heads to go with it though ...

Well, I've never seen other mention of EA having a "house curve." Given EA's own description of the Wizzy, it is clear that it deviates from their usual targets. Also, in terms of psychoacoustics, human listeners are extremely sensitive to changes in the spectral profile in the region around 1 kHz. In a broadband signal, it only takes about a 2-dB change in say, a 1/3 octave band, to be noticeable.

Here's a demo. Make a "shhh" sound with your mouth. As you are doing it, place your hands over your nose and mouth. Hear that "nasal" quality? That's pretty much what happens when you boost those mid frequencies.

At least in the hi-fi world, going for anything but flat response in the 1-3 kHz region is verboten.

 

[drurb]

Anyway, like drurb pointed out a long time ago, it seems to be something that can happen w/ piezos, esp. maybe the bridge mounted variety. And like he said, it's actually more from your fingers hitting the string a certain way during the plucking motion than from the fundamentals of the notes themselves.

Hope I got that right.

You did, indeed!

 

[bolo]

At least in the hi-fi world, going for anything but flat response in the 1-3 kHz region is verboten.

Okee ... FWIW:

Stephen Boletchek
Sent 10/08/04 9:03 AM

I own a Wizzy combo, use it for upright & electric, and I love it more every time I use it.

I do have a question about a comment I believe was connected to the CXL 112 cabinet, which described a "house curve around 1kHz." I was wondering if this also applied to the voicing for the Wizzy cab.

Thanks so much.

-------------------------------------------

John@EA
Sent 10/15/04 7:30 PM

Hi Steve.

The voicing of the Wizzy is similar to that of the CxL-112 from about 400Hz to 2KHz. The CxL-112 has an additional bump about 2.5KHz which gives it a bit of an edge.

John Dong ​

 

[drurb]

Okee ... FWIW:

Stephen Boletchek
Sent 11/08/04 9:03 AM

I own a Wizzy combo, use it for upright & electric, and I love it more every time I use it.

I do have a question about a comment I believe was connected to the CXL 112 cabinet, which described a "house curve around 1kHz." I was wondering if this also applied to the voicing for the Wizzy cab.

Thanks so much.

-------------------------------------------

John@EA
Sent 10/15/04 7:30 PM

Hi Steve.

The voicing of the Wizzy is similar to that of the CxL-112 from about 400Hz to 2KHz. The CxL-112 has an additional bump about 2.5KHz which gives it a bit of an edge.

John Dong ​

Thanks-- very interesting. No specific mention of a bump at 1 kHz on either. This also doesn't quite square with their advertising rhetoric regarding the Wizzy:

We here at EA are perfectionists. It is difficult to admit when we have goofed. But, well as much as I hate to admit it, we goofed big. We goofed big and glorious and wonderful. We goofed in a way that has brought us sonic pleasure and a really big grin.

EA is known for making amps and speaker cabinets that faithfully reproduce, without coloration, the great tone that “comes from your hands, your heart and your soul.” So when we say that our Wizzy 112 cabinet has some coloration to the sound you can see our dilemma.

The Wizzy 112 has a big, warm bass response that harkens back to those “old school” sounds while still having a clear midrange and a sweet high end.

That certainly seems to set it apart from the CXL-112. "Warm" bass is usually associated with a response peak substantially below 1 kHz-- roughly somewhere in the 250-500-Hz region.

By the way, decisions regarding "voicing" in consumer products are usually very unscientific. Having had the opportunity to peak inside the hi-fi loudspeaker industry, I was surprised at how much of the tweaks result from one or two guys just listening and deciding what sounds better. Don't get me wrong-- some of theose guys are real wizards. Still, it was surprising to see.

...and yeah, I really do like my Wizzy.