I rake. I agree with Norwegianwood that alternation gives greater control over tone, but the difference between raking and alternating on bass is negligible, esp. at high tempos.
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Rake or strict alternation?
- Thread starter Suckbird
- Start date
I rake - I thought it was the proper way.
That is ... until I saw this thread!
Maybe it's time to explore strict alteration to see if that's advantageous at times.
That is ... until I saw this thread!
Maybe it's time to explore strict alteration to see if that's advantageous at times.
I love to use alternation and I teach it the hard way BUT, there is time to use it and not to. I wouldn't suggest for people who never use strict alternate to apply it everywhere because it won't feel good because when you're playing a bass part there are some places where it is not neccessary. When I play eight notes in a rock tune I use 1 finger even if I have a good control with the alternate fingers. It just doen't feel as steady and the sound is not exactly the same with 2 fingers. When I walk, I use 1 finger and play the ghost notes or added rhytms with the other finger and YES I will rake for the triplets going down in a walking bass(it is probably the best place to use raking)! But if you play fast lines, alternates fingers is the way to go.
SB
SB
Govithoy said:
Exactly. The smaller and more controlled your movements are, the more relaxed your playing becomes.
i just do whatever feels right at that point in time. i don't think about it at all when i play at church. its only a problem when i am consiously thinking about it at home. its worked every time.
i think that technique doesn't matter as long as the end result is the desired one.
i think that technique doesn't matter as long as the end result is the desired one.
SA vs. Raking has been a fun topic. I've participated in a couple of threads concerning SA vs. Raking.
If I am practicing some exercises, then I can focus on SA or raking. Honestly; when I play, there are so many things going on in the right hand. My right hand is like my toolbox. It does a lot of different things. If I start restricting myself to SA or Raking, then I believe that I have reduced my ability to create music.
There are certain musical situations where I may favor one over the other but I can't limit myself. I would like to say that I am going to do everything SA, but that's not realistic for me. My left hand plays a huge part in the articulation of notes. Sometimes I don't even have to use the right hand.
I could go on; but in short, I have to do what works for the situation. For example, I just replied to a post on playing octaves. Think about playing the bassline to Y.M.C.A. All of a sudden SA doesn't work anymore.
Joe
If I am practicing some exercises, then I can focus on SA or raking. Honestly; when I play, there are so many things going on in the right hand. My right hand is like my toolbox. It does a lot of different things. If I start restricting myself to SA or Raking, then I believe that I have reduced my ability to create music.
There are certain musical situations where I may favor one over the other but I can't limit myself. I would like to say that I am going to do everything SA, but that's not realistic for me. My left hand plays a huge part in the articulation of notes. Sometimes I don't even have to use the right hand.
I could go on; but in short, I have to do what works for the situation. For example, I just replied to a post on playing octaves. Think about playing the bassline to Y.M.C.A. All of a sudden SA doesn't work anymore.
Joe
PunkerTrav said:
Smaller doesn't neccissarily mean more controlled. The whole economy of motion thing is true up to a certain point I think after which there is a loss of control. For me raking (which I tend to do naturally) isn't as controlled = tight as alternating.
I even go a step further (though just as a basic approach, there are a lot of situations where raking or any other technique might be more appropriate): I try to play all the notes that are on the beat with my middle finger, and all off-beat notes with my index finger. So when I'm playing an all 16ths pattern I'm alternating all the time untill there are two on the beat 8ths in the pattern which I would play with two consecutive middle finger strokes (for example). I play a lot of Rocco Prestia-like 16ths stuff and for me ths works very well.
The whole idea behind this technique is that I'm translating the underlying division of a groove (8ths or 16ths) into an flowing motion of two fingers that never stops (although I might not be moving my fingers all the time I try to keep the feel going). All this to make my time as precise and controlled as possible.
Bassist4, in an 8th note followed by 2 16th notes an octave higher pattern, you are right that strict alternation with fingers would be a pain. But you can't rake it either. On lines like YMCA, I pull out the thumb and use it for the root and the other two fingers for the octave. I've seen guys who use a finger on the root and the other finger on the octave but my hand tires out after a while from hitting two 16th notes with the same finger, so I just use the thumb.
As for economy of motion, I'm all for it. That's why I use SA for fast playing. There's nothing less economical that breaking the flow of SA with a rake and switching your lead and trailing fingers. It takes you out of your rhythm and forces your fingers to reverse their roles. When you rake, people mistake using one finger to do the work of two as economy of motion, but they forget that they've just completely stopped the momentum they had by alternating. It's much more economical to continue a motion than break its flow.
As for economy of motion, I'm all for it. That's why I use SA for fast playing. There's nothing less economical that breaking the flow of SA with a rake and switching your lead and trailing fingers. It takes you out of your rhythm and forces your fingers to reverse their roles. When you rake, people mistake using one finger to do the work of two as economy of motion, but they forget that they've just completely stopped the momentum they had by alternating. It's much more economical to continue a motion than break its flow.
JimmyM said:
Bassist4Life said:
JimmyM,
I handle YMCA with the thumb and index/middle fingers also.
Joe
I found a pro SA website that you all might enjoy. Adam Nitti seems to be a semi-SA. I know that I have been leaning toward raking, but I'm always educating myself.
http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_02.shtml
Joe
http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_02.shtml
Joe
I think this pinpoints exactly what has been an obstacle for me.JimmyM said:
When I first learned of raking, I thought it was the greatest thing - that it would increase my speed considerably.
Hasn't happened.
I think your idea that raking can interrupt your normal flow of motion is correct in my case.
I play YMCA with i on the root, then pluck the octave 16ths with i-m (in that order).
The tough part is to get i back to the root.
I cannot do this well (sounds great for a few bars, then breaks down), but I believe that this is the way Chen plays it on the original recording, for what that's worth.
The song may be little more than cheesy, bubblegum pop but I still love it.
The tough part is to get i back to the root.
I cannot do this well (sounds great for a few bars, then breaks down), but I believe that this is the way Chen plays it on the original recording, for what that's worth.
The song may be little more than cheesy, bubblegum pop but I still love it.
One more thing about raking:
Yes, the movement you will be making is faster than an alternate motion. But this results in 1 note being played faster, all the other notes (e.g. those on the same string) will still have to be played using alternate fingers. So there is a big risk for the one raked note to be out of time; In other words, when raking you should actually slow the raking motion down to make sure that one note is in time with all other alternate-fingered notes.
Yes, the movement you will be making is faster than an alternate motion. But this results in 1 note being played faster, all the other notes (e.g. those on the same string) will still have to be played using alternate fingers. So there is a big risk for the one raked note to be out of time; In other words, when raking you should actually slow the raking motion down to make sure that one note is in time with all other alternate-fingered notes.
i got hung up on this SA thing for a while and practiced and practiced. I got a lesson from the Australian bassist Steve Hunter a few years ago and asked him about it. Now this guy is a brilliant bass player with a Jaco sort of free jazz thing happening on a fretted customized 24 fret bass. He said man I just play. He has played with Cobham and Chick Corea and has got to a level where he just plays. He does chordal things and the harmonic stuff and has released many solo albums. when he goes to the fast sixteenths he just does what works.
He rakes and alternates.
Interestingly he abandonded the six string and went back to the four. Something I find myself doing (although I have played a five string for the last 15 years). There is something about those four strings that just seem comfortable to me.
He rakes and alternates.
Interestingly he abandonded the six string and went back to the four. Something I find myself doing (although I have played a five string for the last 15 years). There is something about those four strings that just seem comfortable to me.
Same here. To me, 4 string is where it's at. I must admit to having problems holding back my wanking on the B string when I play a 5. So not playing one nips that in the bud before it starts. Plus a 4 string just feels more natural to me. I started on one, and it's the rare occasion indeed when I actually need a 5. And I never need a 6. And a 7 is right out! Wouldn't mind a nice Tom Petersson 12 string, though 
As for Steve Hunter, it's all well and good to say "I just play," but I'd bet years of lessons and practicing good techniques went into getting to the level of "I just play."
As for Steve Hunter, it's all well and good to say "I just play," but I'd bet years of lessons and practicing good techniques went into getting to the level of "I just play."
