Rant about music snobs, open mic nite content

[gigslut]

You have a valid point, but this is not what toastfuzz is addressing.

Yeah in a way, it was, though I think his characterization of the responses to silence largely missed their mark. things like

"nobody offered constructive criticism",

when several people did offer help

and then

" He can't state his opinion without a beatdown, he can't argue back without being called a thin-skinned pu**y, he can't leave the thread without being laughed at for ragequitting"

He did more than state his opinion, he did so with a lot of attitude to which some responded in kind. You get what you give. I missed the post about him being called a thin skinned pu**y, though. Could you point it out to me? Because that would have been out of line. There's no need for that kind of talk and that post should be reported. But he did rage quit, several times. If you quit a thread in anger and come back to it, people are going to call you on it.

So what is being called to question here is the motives on both sides. Were some of us belittling a noob for not knowing, or prodding him to better himself? I think it started with prodding him to learn, and quickly turned to belittling him for making excuses not to.

Was he defending his inexperience or defending his complacency? One is defensible, the other not.

 

[Febs]

My question to you all is, why bother?

Since you asked the question, here is why I bothered to respond to Silence. Silence's [DEL]first [/DEL] third post in this thread essentially said, "I know almost nothing about music. I rely on other people around me to dumb things down for me." (I'm paraphrasing from memory, but I am fairly confident that this is an accurate summary of his post.)

I listened to all of his recordings, and I thought that they were all good. Very good, as a matter of fact. My first post was intended to encourage him to learn the fundamentals so that he wouldn't have to rely on other people to dumb things down for him, and so that he wouldn't continue to run into the type of problems that he described in his post, because to be honest, I don't like seeing talented people held back by easily surmountable, self-imposed limitations. Let's face it: if he relies on other people to "dumb things down" for him instead of actually learning the basics of his craft, he is going to get far, far worse beatdowns than someone like me saying, "learn the fundamentals so that you don't waste other people's time."

I think that what happened after that had much more to do with the tone of his responses than anything I wrote. Regardless, with all due respect, Toastfuzz, I am not going to stop encouraging people to learn just because you or anyone else calls me names, and if people would rather quit than learn, that is really their issue, not mine.

What satisfaction do you get from telling someone else you're better than them?

I would respectfully suggest that you might want to think about that question yourself. You posted this thread to assert your own superiority over that of a guitarist at a jam session who made a mistake. You didn't have the courage to tell the guitarist at your jam session that he was wrong, even though you knew he was. Instead, you chose to make fun of him behind his back, to make yourself feel better in the relative safety of a forum of bass players, leaving him to potentially make the same mistake again in the future. Is that really better than anything you accuse me of in this thread?

 

[plankspanker13]

Perhaps this might be a good moment for a quick lesson in perspective.

To a non-musician, a musician of even the most minimal ability may be a "music snob."
To the aforementioned player of minimal ability, someone of more ability might be a "music snob."
It goes on, ad infinitum, up the strata of ability levels, right up to the highest virtuoso.

That said, stubborn refusal to try to improve, even when assistance in doing so is offered, is the kind of intransigence that invites wrath, in the face of continued complaining. It is the same logic as "if you don't vote, then you really have no place in complaining about the government."

 

[jive1]

There was a bird that was flying south for the winter that lost it's way, and found itself flying in a brutal winter storm. The was tired and sick, but found a barn where it could rest. The bird flew in and immediately collapsed. Weak, hungry, and cold, the bird laid there waiting for death to arrive. But, all of a sudden a cow walked by and let out a huge turd that landed on the bird. The turd warmed up the bird, and all of a sudden the bird felt better and started to sing. A cat heard the bird singing, and proceeded to wipe the cow dung off the bird. After the bird was cleaned up, the cat killed and ate the bird.

There are 3 morals in this story:
1. Not everyone who craps on you means you harm
2. Not everyone who takes crap off of you have your best interests in mind.
3. If you get crapped on, and come out ahead, keep your mouth shut.

 

[fraublugher]

The earth meets the sky at the horizon , i was told by a bird with a lump
on its head.

 

[Toastfuzz]

Maybe I'm the one who's too sensitive. If you don't read the responses to Silence (even before he started getting riled up) as helpful advice wrapped in a bow of condescending elitist attitude, then you guys have spent waaaaay too much time jerking each other off and driving young inexperienced bassists out of the forums.

Febs, my issue was caused by my not knowing theory. In essence I'm agreeing with you; if I had known theory and just responded with "this is F#" then I would have never had a conflict and this thread wouldn't exist. Read my posts, I didn't know what F# was. As guitarist played and yelled F# at my face, I kept playing what sounded right for the song. I knew I was playing a sufficient note, but being belittled on stage made me feel otherwise (again, playing with more experienced/knowledgeable musicians, I just assumed I was in the wrong.) I wish another bassist would have confirmed to me later that I was right, so I could have told the guitarist. It wasn't out of fear that I didn't correct him, it was out of my own ignorance. I guess we were both ignorant, which is what caused the issue in the first place. Then again, would it have been good for me to correct him there? Get into an argument? Cause a scene? "Bash him over the head with my headstock" or "walk off stage flipping him the bird?" Is that really a better ending to this story than what transpired? Sure, it would have been nice to educate him to the science of a 5 string bass, but I'm not exactly trying to make fun of him behind his back here. Nobody would know who he is (by these posts) unless they watched us on that night or participated. I came on here to vent (see how I called it a Rant?) about a common problem we bassists have, which is other musicians not understanding our instrument. I'm sure every other instrumentalist can say the same things about us. My rant in particular was about the people who are ignorant but act like a d*** about it. Silence_ admitted his ignorance, and only responded with hostility when he was interrogated, attacked, or otherwise belittled.

You see this guy Silence_ as someone who is resistant to your freely given help. Its like if I offered someone a $20 bill and they didnt take it, I'd assume they're an idiot. He see's you guys as the same type of instructors he's dealt with in the past. No one offered any constructive criticism until they made it perfectly clear they were appalled at the fact he didnt know his fretboard notes, as if that's such a rare occurrence or major handicap. Saying "Can I teach you?" will be better accepted that saying "Wow you're dumb, let me teach you."

Oh by the way, you should all eat eggplant. Even if you don't like it, or your previous experiences with it have been sour. Trust me, its healthy for you. Eating eggplant will make you a healthier person than you are now. Choosing to not eat eggplant is cursing yourself to a life of obesity and laziness. I'm only telling you this because I was once you, eating cheeseburgers and steaks all day and not having a care in the world for eggplant. But I know better now, eggplant is essential for your body, and I'm not going to stop harping on eggplant until you submit or leave.

 

[plankspanker13]

Silence_ admitted his ignorance, and only responded with hostility when he was interrogated, attacked, or otherwise belittled.

The question was, "why don't you know the names of the notes on your instrument?" -asked in post #131. The response came in post #136, and was hostile to all of us who were trying to be helpful, and offering perspective. Of course, Silence_ was already being hostile, as exemplified in post #129, thus proving the quote above to be somewhat incorrect. Did the subsequent dialogue serve to exacerbate the hostility from Silence_, and thus the retribution in kind? Of course, it did! That's human nature for you.

The bottom line is that, in the face of overwhelming evidence that he lacks what most sane musicians view as critical knowledge, and in spite of the offers of assistance from others, Silence_ chose to go right on with his "lovely little attitude," as one poster quaintly put it. If you're gonna pick a fight, you'd better come with sufficient armament to win it, or you're going to get killed. There is no need to take up for ignorance, although, I could point out that this debate is an awful lot like dogma vs science, in microcosm.

 

[Toastfuzz]

The question was, "why don't you know the names of the notes on your instrument?" -asked in post #131. The response came in post #136, and was hostile to all of us who were trying to be helpful, and offering perspective. Of course, Silence_ was already being hostile, as exemplified in post #129, thus proving the quote above to be somewhat incorrect. Did the subsequent dialogue serve to exacerbate the hostility from Silence_, and thus the retribution in kind? Of course, it did! That's human nature for you.

The bottom line is that, in the face of overwhelming evidence that he lacks what most sane musicians view as critical knowledge, and in spite of the offers of assistance from others, Silence_ chose to go right on with his "lovely little attitude," as one poster quaintly put it. If you're gonna pick a fight, you'd better come with sufficient armament to win it, or you're going to get killed. There is no need to take up for ignorance, although, I could point out that this debate is an awful lot like dogma vs science, in microcosm.

You must be happy you "won."

The first responses back to him were condescending. It all rolled downhill from there. The responses I'm referring to was written by you and Febs, and like I said I'm sure its pointless to try to convince you of that, except to refer you to my eggplant snip above. By the way, why haven't you got any eggplant yet? Theres really no excuse not to. Its readily available in any grocery store and the dividends will be large.

 

[Febs]

You see this guy Silence_ as someone who is resistant to your freely given help. Its like if I offered someone a $20 bill and they didnt take it, I'd assume they're an idiot. He see's you guys as the same type of instructors he's dealt with in the past. No one offered any constructive criticism until they made it perfectly clear they were appalled at the fact he didnt know his fretboard notes, as if that's such a rare occurrence or major handicap. Saying "Can I teach you?" will be better accepted that saying "Wow you're dumb, let me teach you."

Here's the thing, Toastfuzz: I never said he was dumb. He said it. There is a big difference between

"Wow, you're dumb, let me teach you."

and

"Wow, I'm dumb."

"Let me teach you."

 

[Toastfuzz]

Here's the thing, Toastfuzz: I never said he was dumb. He said it. There is a big difference between

"Wow, you're dumb, let me teach you."

and

"Wow, I'm dumb."

"Let me teach you."

For arguments sake.. thats not what happened.

"Wow, I'm dumb."

"Let me teach you."

"No thanks"

"No really, I'm going to teach you."

"No, back off dude. I dont need your help"

"You dumb young kid! You need to grow up n get some learnin in ya!"

"Hey, screw off, I said I didnt want your help, leave me alone"

"Kid needs to grow a thicker skin and grow up if he wants to survive in this world"

"Screw you guys, I'm leaving"

"Haha he's leaving! What a dummy. He didnt even know the notes on his bass."

"You guys are still talking about me? What gives? Just give it a rest. seriously now, I'm leaving."

"Haha! Ragequit fail! Your dumb! Let me get some more digs in before you delete your account!"

Hey guys, I'm outta work at 5, so expect an epic ragequit from my own thread in 50 minutes.

Oh, have you picked up any eggplant yet? Theres a sale right now. Theres really no excuse at this point. Trust me, you'll feel better once you get it down in yer belly.

 

[gigslut]

Maybe I'm the one who's too sensitive.

Yes

If you don't read the responses to Silence (even before he started getting riled up) as helpful advice wrapped in a bow of condescending elitist attitude,

No

then you guys have spent waaaaay too much time jerking each other off and driving young inexperienced bassists out of the forums.

No one is forced to leave the forum unless it is by administrative action, how they take what is offered is a matter of their own choosing. You can grow or choose to remain complacent. You may be able to get by with your limitations at an early age, but those days will be numbered and people will begin to hold you to a higher standard as you get older. It is easier to be ready for that day than to play catch up when it comes.

Having a good ear is an essential asset in playing music, no amount of schooling or theory can compensate for a lack of that, but very few people can get by on that alone.
You have become more attitudinal than silence about this. He has actually come to grips with his need to broaden his musical horizons, while you seem to prefer to take pride in your limitations.

As far as jerking off is concerned, your whole OP was one big jerk off, why did you come here to vent about it? What did you accomplish? The guitar player still thinks you are an idiot, you haven't shown him otherwise. Seems to me this is a lot of displaced anger. Your own lack of knowledge prevented you from clarifying the situation right then and there. But those who suggest you improve your ability to communicate about music are the ones "jerking off" and need to "grow up"? Project much, do you? How's that working for you?

 

[jive1]

Oh by the way, you should all eat eggplant. Even if you don't like it, or your previous experiences with it have been sour. Trust me, its healthy for you. Eating eggplant will make you a healthier person than you are now. Choosing to not eat eggplant is cursing yourself to a life of obesity and laziness. I'm only telling you this because I was once you, eating cheeseburgers and steaks all day and not having a care in the world for eggplant. But I know better now, eggplant is essential for your body, and I'm not going to stop harping on eggplant until you submit or leave.

Straw Man.

Eggplant has nothing to do with music. If you are to be an eggplant somalier, eggplant chef, eggplant expert, eggplant blogger, eggplant market specialist, etc. it would probably be helpful. Sort a like how knowing notes on your fretboard would help you on your instrument if you're a bassist. I think this is still a bass forum, right?

The following isn't directed at you, just a general comment....
Just because people don't tell you what you want to hear don't make them automatically douchebags or give your the right to be butt-hurt.

If you can't take a little heat, then music is the wrong business or hobby for you. Every time you take the stage or have your recording played, it is being judged either privately or publicly. If some guys on a message board make you ragequit, what will you do if you get a negative review of your work on magazine or blog? If someone teaching you something basic on an online forum rattles you, what will you do when you get an opportunity to learn from a great instructor who points out the things you need to improve on? If someone giving you feeback on a message board gets you all butt-hurt, what are you going to do when a band-member, agent, producer, promoter, etc. gives you negative feeback? If you feel rejected from some guys on a forum, what will you do if you actually get rejected from an audition or fired from your band? If you can't face up to your shortcomings, then how are you ever going to get better?

I'm pretty sure lots of guys with experience have their share of beat-downs, bumps, bruises and what-not. But, it's those who get back up and try to avoid what caused them to fall in the first place that tend to succeed.

An in my humble opinion and experiences, no matter how valid the excuse is, excuses never garner respect. Results get respect, and excuses are never a replacement for results. They are just reasons for why you don't have results.

 

[plankspanker13]

I happen to like eggplant cuisine...but I prefer bacon.

 

[Betrayer_Bass]

Wow guys, $#!7 got real in here...

 

[Toastfuzz]

Word games!

I am jerking off, and hard. All over the internet. Just making a huge mess of things.

Silence obviously took things personally. He didnt like being mistreated by the high-horse goons. I think alot of people leave these forums with a bad taste in their mouth for that reason.

Gigslut, I respect your age or veteran status or astronaut experience or whatever, and I'll agree that people who have more age/experience often have sage wisdom to share. But at this point the argument isn't even about theory. Its about the 3 of you reaaaaally wanting validation that you are right and I am wrong. You got your validation from Silence, and I didnt like it that he was mistreated and now probably thinks all of TB is like that. And now your sights are set on me, who didn't want to engage in the discussion of notes or theory or whatever, I just wanted to stick up for the poor guy.

You dont know my musical aspirations or my life goals. So how are you to advise me on what I should or shouldn't do? Thats why I keep bringing up Band Management/Technique forums... they have an obvious purpose. The Bass Humor & Gigs Stories forums have a purpose too, and its not asking for or giving advice on how people should or shouldnt advance their musical career. You, Febs, and Jive seem to think "well I'm here now, might as well preach to some people." I have no pride in my limitations, and I often explore TB seeking knowledge to better myself. This isnt the time nor place for it. And just as you're all "free" to offer your unsolicited high horsey advice to anyone anywhere, anyone else is free to say No. Why you insist upon it so damn hard is a mystery to me and I can only attribute it to filling your ego.

Now I see Jive1's "humble opinion and experience" once again being used to justify why he just can't let it rest either. Do you guys act like this in real life? If someone doesnt agree with you, do you keep harping on them until they crumble and submit? Like I said, at this point its not even about music theory or about knowing notes. We could point out all of each others' hypocrisy all day long, the one that springs to mind now is how Silence was accused of always needing to get in the last word... which I guess I'm doing now, and someone else will do when they inevitably respond to me. All I can say at this point without contradicting myself is good day, and sorry your ego won't be getting a boost from me today.

Plankspanker, I respect your stance on bacon, though I dont agree with it. To each his own.

But the rest of you really outta try this eggplant.

No one is forced to leave the forum unless it is by administrative action, how they take what is offered is a matter of their own choosing. You can grow or choose to remain complacent. You may be able to get by with your limitations at an early age, but those days will be numbered and people will begin to hold you to a higher standard as you get older. It is easier to be ready for that day than to play catch up when it comes.

Having a good ear is an essential asset in playing music, no amount of schooling or theory can compensate for a lack of that, but very few people can get by on that alone.
You have become more attitudinal than silence about this. He has actually come to grips with his need to broaden his musical horizons, while you seem to prefer to take pride in your limitations.

As far as jerking off is concerned, your whole OP was one big jerk off, why did you come here to vent about it? What did you accomplish? The guitar player still thinks you are an idiot, you haven't shown him otherwise. Seems to me this is a lot of displaced anger. Your own lack of knowledge prevented you from clarifying the situation right then and there. But those who suggest you improve your ability to communicate about music are the ones "jerking off" and need to "grow up"? Project much, do you? How's that working for you?

 

[DONZI97]

I'm trying to figure out were the kid was called dumb......I did call him lazy though.

 

[Febs]

You, Febs, and Jive seem to think "well I'm here now, might as well preach to some people."

I had bowed out of this thread after my conversation with Silence. The only reason I posted today was because you called me out by name and appeared to put specific questions directly to me. I responded to those specific questions, and I posted one very short (i.e, two sentence) response to your reply. That's it.

I should also point out that I have treated you with respect in all of my posts, while you have repeatedly called me names. So let me make this very, very clear for you: I don't need your validation and I don't care if you think I am right or wrong. I responded to you because you asked me specific questions. If you are insecure because of your own lack of knowledge, go and do something about it but stop projecting your insecurities on me.

 

[pkstone]

Toastfuzz, you're taking this *way* too personally.

One really hard thing about music is that it can just crush your ego if you take everything personally. There will always be someone who plays better and has more experience than you, but here's the thing: if they offer good advice (and I saw nothing but good advice offered here) it doesn't matter if they do it to validate themselves, it's still a gift, if you choose to look at it that way.

The world is full of people who don't know squat offering *their* opinions; take the all-too-rare good stuff and run with it instead of resenting the adviser.

 

[MatticusMania]

Oh by the way, you should all eat eggplant. Even if you don't like it, or your previous experiences with it have been sour. Trust me, its healthy for you. Eating eggplant will make you a healthier person than you are now. Choosing to not eat eggplant is cursing yourself to a life of obesity and laziness. I'm only telling you this because I was once you, eating cheeseburgers and steaks all day and not having a care in the world for eggplant. But I know better now, eggplant is essential for your body, and I'm not going to stop harping on eggplant until you submit or leave.

You'll be happy to know, then, that I cooked eggplant for the first time ever last night.

No pork products but thyne own should ever come that close to a womans ladyparts.

I'll have some eggplant, please.

 

[GypsyMan]

Wow, hold the press!

The last time I looked at this thread the OP was talking about the Lead Guitard looking back and barking F#. I think we were also talking about Jam session ettiquette?

I personally liked the OP's statement of hearing the notes and playing by ear. I study theory because I'm not as good playing by ear.

What happened here? Who's car is this?! Was the Rail-Road crossing bar down at the time of collision? Did the engine derail before or after impact?