Ray Ross Bridges

[MattZilla]

anybody got any numbers

the numbers wouldn’t be worth much. The downforce from the string’s vibrations into the bass’ body is less than what you’d get with a common through-body bridge, and more than you’d get with a bridge on an Ovation Magnum or a forward tilted Gibson 3-point. Its downforce holding the “saddle (?)” in place on the bridge base to be not sliding around under heavy playing is likely to be on par with Fender bent bridges, the stability could be hurt due to spreading a similar load across a far wider patch than a pair of set screws. We already know that the bent plate allows instability under recklessly heavy players’ hands.

I don’t know where anyone’s coming up with “inharmonicity” from a bridge. Bridges aren’t tuned (except maybe by eccentrics like Darrin Huff). If anything, there’s less potential for inharmonicity given there’s no string behind a saddle to ring.

I still think it’s a poor design concocted by someone with no end goal, no problem to solve, just a “what if...”. The end result is it turns all strings, whether they’re designed for it or not, into exposed core strings.

Anyone who wants to experiment with that (enough overtones that your band can get by with one less guitarist) can find a brand new decade old set of Rotosound PSD’s at many independent music shops at a steeeep discount as compared to a whole new bridge.

 

[StefanMarinov]

I still think it’s a poor design concocted by someone with no end goal, no problem to solve, just a “what if...”. The end result is it turns all strings, whether they’re designed for it or not, into exposed core strings.

Anyone who wants to experiment with that (enough overtones that your band can get by with one less guitarist) can find a brand new decade old set of Rotosound PSD’s at many independent music shops at a steeeep discount as compared to a whole new bridge.

In the case of your thoughts and conclusions made of suggestions, versus my ears, forgive me but I’ll stick with my own actual experience.

Apart from the videos, I’ve already recorded bass on a few tracks and it sounds wonderful without being in the way of any other instrument, but hey, maybe your science tells you better.

I’ve tried exposed core strings and they do not sound like this bridge.

Just don’t get the persistence of bashing something and “scientifically” and “engineeringly” trying to explain how it won’t, shouldn’t and wouldn’t work, especially to someone who’s tried it?

Also I do have a heavy touch - no, the strings don’t flap around or slide the plates under the pins left and right, producing some odd sound artefacts or loss of tune or anything at all. But again you seem to know better .

 

[StefanMarinov]

To add to that, for the people like me, who can only play Elixir coated strings (because my hands destroy any other strings in 3-4 gigs), even if you could achieve this with exposed core strings (which again I disagree with), it’s well worth paying full price for the bridge once and using it with Elixirs since they last me months ( can’t go more than a week with regular ones).

 

[MattZilla]

In the case of your thoughts and conclusions made of suggestions, versus my ears, forgive me but I’ll stick with my own actual experience.

Apart from the videos, I’ve already recorded bass on a few tracks and it sounds wonderful without being in the way of any other instrument, but hey, maybe your science tells you better.

I’ve tried exposed core strings and they do not sound like this bridge.

Just don’t get the persistence of bashing something and “scientifically” and “engineeringly” trying to explain how it won’t, shouldn’t and wouldn’t work, especially to someone who’s tried it?

Also I do have a heavy touch - no, the strings don’t flap around or slide the plates under the pins left and right, producing some odd sound artefacts or loss of tune or anything at all. But again you seem to know better .

Excellent. More power to you!

 

[StefanMarinov]

Excellent. More power to you!

No need of sarcasm mate. If a bridge sounds better than any other I’ve tried, and I’ve tried a lot, and saves me money, then I’m sorry but I’m not getting convinced in the opposite by any scientific proof.

Edit: saves me money if the exposed core strings are producing results close to what this one does. I don’t recall such thing though.

 

[silky smoove]

No need of sarcasm mate.

FWIW I detected no sarcasm in what @MattZilla posted.

 

[StefanMarinov]

FWIW I detected no sarcasm in what @MattZilla posted.

I’ve always admired people who see the world in a much more positive light than me .

 

[MattZilla]

No need of sarcasm mate. If a bridge sounds better than any other I’ve tried, and I’ve tried a lot, and saves me money, then I’m sorry but I’m not getting convinced in the opposite by any scientific proof.

Edit: saves me money if the exposed core strings are producing results close to what this one does. I don’t recall such thing though.

I offered no scientific proof of anything beyond observing middle of the road angles and a wide contact patch without cross-axis movement mitigation.

There are many things on which I rationalize spending money that I’m told I shouldn’t be able to enjoy using it how I intend to (sometimes even by their respective salesmen), but then I do enjoy them a lot.

There genuinely was no sarcasm intended. Truly, enjoy your modified bass.

 

[StefanMarinov]

There genuinely was no sarcasm intended. Truly, enjoy your modified bass.

I’m sorry, might have read more in between the lines than it actually was.
I am really enjoying both of them, waiting for a third to be built with that bridge too.

I offered no scientific proof of anything beyond observing middle of the road angles and a wide contact patch without cross-axis movement mitigation.

I understand. I see where you’re coming from - with my playing approach no such issue has occurred. Don’t know what the downforce is but in my case it’s enough to keep everything in place without any indication of a problem. Maybe someone with an extremely heavy hand would disturb the balance but then I guess that’ll introduce all sorts of problems regardless of the bridge type.

 

[RodRy]

this thread is almost old enough to graduate from diapers to using a toilet.

Are you not tired of threads like “tell me about compressors”, “I don’t get Vulfpeck”, “What string will sound more sour cream & onion plus kinda purple skyscraper than the unknown strings that came with my used bass?”, and the classic “how do I get more neck dive?”

Ray, the designer, clearly is not capable of taking an educational approach, nor of being diplomatic. That almost makes the whole thing more enjoyable. The downforce is easy to calculate and to illustrate, but the educated people with whom Mr. Ross consulted don’t know how to explain it to someone who refused to learn algebra, let alone basic Physics, any better than they could explain it to a person as old as this thread.

The only thing the bridge does, with or without its questionable fastener choice, with or without its poor ergonomics, with or without its nice machining work, is turn every string into an exposed core string á la Rotosound PSD and thus enhance a ton of overtones which most bassists have little to no use for.

Ray is really short changing both himself and a large portion of the small portion of the bass community who do want all of those overtones by wasting time and resources with Fender style basses instead of going into the multi scale erb instruments.

You think that a thread is old if it's been around for less than 2 years?

I agree that the designer is not a salesman. And I've met with enough small business owners who are designers but not engineers and not salesmen, so I'm willing to give him some slack.

Curious about your downforce calculations and model. Interested in if it's close to mine. Of course, so far mine is a mental exercise.

From hearing the clips of bass players using the Ray Ross bridge, I'm not hearing a bunch of overtones, so I'm curious what you have heard. One of the vids changed the bridge on his Lakland, and I have to agree with the owner of the bass: it sounded better with Ray's bridge on it. One of the things I like about his bridge design is that it looks super easy to restring, at least much more so than about half of my basses. Although less easy than my old Wilkinson bridge, or some of the slotted designs.

To me, this is still a new product which has very little installed base. I'm happy to discuss it and I'm even interested in getting one of these and seeing how close it comes to living up to Ray's assertions about it. Until we have one installed, all this is just discussion space.

Join in if you want to. If you don't, then rather than chiding others for being curious and wanting to discuss something you don't, just walk on by.

 

[RodRy]

Hello. My agreement with you on this point notwithstanding, I think that you are yelling into the void here.

TalkBass is underpinned by rehashing. Whether due to forgetfulness, laziness, lack of imagination, mimicry, obsession, inexperience, OCD, spite, or whatever, the same thread topics and arguments appear again repeatedly for years on end.

Good luck stemming that tide. They won't stop because we asked them to nicely. They won't stop for any reason.

Well, if you're tired of this thread or others like it, then do you think responding to it will get it to die a quiet death?

Maybe, with several threads on the same topic to choose from, a person may pull up one, read it, and post to that one just because that's where they are? Maybe you think that's lazy.

I don't understand what you're hoping for. You're not really contributing anything of value - not commenting on what's in the thread, just stopping by to thumb your nose at people who are discussing something you don't feel like discussing. People won't stop talking about things they feel like talking about. Why should they?

Walk on by. Set your TB preferences to ignore this thread. Have a nice life.

 

[MattZilla]

extremely heavy hand would disturb the balance but then I guess that’ll introduce all sorts of problems regardless of the bridge type.

IME, very much yes.

Playing hard is physically more fun, it can sound wicked cool to bass guitarists, but much to my dismay, the best non-“look at me!” sounds come from having the plucking range be in the “playing with a newborn infant’s fingers” range of force.

“Playing hard” is different for some of us who’ve gone through multiple years of heavy physical labor for employment and/or are just genetically more muscular (as compared to born musicians like Geddy or Les).

 

[StefanMarinov]

I think it’s more about the approach and how you’ve learned to play... I’m a genetically muscular guy (get mistaken for being a security all the time. Apart from the times people approach me in pubs asking if I know where they can buy drugs...) but my right hand touch is medium. I do push harder sometimes, sometimes lighter but generally in the middle. Have a couple of skinny friends though who push a lot harder than me.

What I imagined earlier was a guy who’s really really smashing the strings to a point where the notes go a semitone up on impact haha... seen that too.

 

[MattZilla]

it sounded better

disagreed, but this is personal taste in what constitutes a useful bass guitar sound. Some people prefer to use a Warwick Thumb exclusively while others like a 4001 with the neck pickup solo’d.

looks super easy to restring

disagreed entirely and completely. It’s less of a pain than swapping strings on a classical guitar or an electric guitar with a Floyd Rose, but that’s a very low bar for a bass guitar bridge post-1980.

less easy than my old Wilkinson bridge, or some of the slotted designs

totally agreed. There’s as much room in the world for new bass guitar bridges without slotted ball mounts as there is for new cars without seatbelts.

 

[StefanMarinov]

“Playing hard” is different for some of us who’ve gone through multiple years of heavy physical labor for employment and/or are just genetically more muscular (as compared to born musicians like Geddy or Les).

Actually I think I remember reading somewhere that Geddy plucks them really hard, but don’t quote me on this.

IME, very much yes.

Playing hard is physically more fun, it can sound wicked cool to bass guitarists, but much to my dismay, the best non-“look at me!” sounds come from having the plucking range be in the “playing with a newborn infant’s fingers” range of force.

I think both extremes can have their application, one thing I’m gonna say though is I wish my fingertips were like a baby’s one - I’ve noticed such a difference when I (for experiment’s sake) pluck with a finger that doesn’t have a quarter inch thick hard 25 years old callus, it is much warmer and rounder... But then you don’t have the protection.

Sorry for going OT

 

[MattZilla]

Actually I think I remember reading somewhere that Geddy plucks them really hard, but don’t quote me on this.

Don’t tell me what not to do! yep, he plucks as hard as his wiry lil paws can, but with the advantage of doing it on impeccably well set up basses with rather low action.

one thing I’m gonna say though is I wish my fingertips were like a baby’s one - I’ve noticed such a difference when I (for experiment’s sake) pluck with a finger that doesn’t have a quarter inch hard thick 25 years old callus, warmer and rounder... But then you don’t have the protection.

I’m there with you. When plucking as musically as I can, I really can’t feel the string unless I use my pinky. With my main three fingers I feel that I’m touching something where I expect a string to be, I feel some resistance, and with certain techniques I feel some friction that is consistent with the spacing of the grooves in my fingerprint. Among the many regrets of my life are the building up of entirely useless calluses and neglecting to drill rudiments of thumb techniques.

 

[StefanMarinov]

Hahahaha ok I won’t no more

See my issue with the calluses is that they change my tone... but can’t have it both ways unfortunately.

Thumb techniques are for YouTube show offs. And Henrik Linder. That was a joke. Unless no one here is a YT show off. Or Henrik Linder. Then it wasn’t a joke.

 

[Snaxster]

Well, if you're tired of this thread or others like it, then do you think responding to it will get it to die a quiet death?

Maybe, with several threads on the same topic to choose from, a person may pull up one, read it, and post to that one just because that's where they are? Maybe you think that's lazy.

I don't understand what you're hoping for. You're not really contributing anything of value - not commenting on what's in the thread, just stopping by to thumb your nose at people who are discussing something you don't feel like discussing. People won't stop talking about things they feel like talking about. Why should they?

Walk on by. Set your TB preferences to ignore this thread. Have a nice life.

What's it like up there? Above commiseration and critique alike? Above both friends and enemies? It seems a lonely, sad place. I say this as someone who is himself never, ever bored or lonely; so I am rather detached. No meds either. Anyway, Good Luck to you.

 

[ixlramp]

RodRy, good to have an engineer here.

Ray has really come up with something interesting. But I read the other thread, and the disconnect seemed to be in the ability to explain what his bridge is doing in a way that gave technical-minded readers like myself a feeling of confidence and understanding. I've heard his players on YT, and it's clear that something is working, so the nay-sayers are wrong to complain that it won't work, or that it will produce poor tone. The proof is right there for anyone to check out.

I think this is a very good summary of the situation and i agree.

But I would even more like to understand where the downforce is coming from that couples the string to the body of the instrument. I think I understand it, and have a diagram in my head that at least makes sense to me,

I explain the cause of downforce here Ray Ross Bridge (post 110) and over the next few pages we discuss further, i also post my calculations of downforce.
There seem to be different results from different people and different engineers, some showing increased downforce, some showing decreased, so your input would be interesting.

 

[Turnaround]

I explain the cause of downforce here Ray Ross Bridge (post 110) and over the next few pages we discuss further, i also post my calculations of downforce.
There seem to be different results from different people and different engineers, some showing increased downforce, some showing decreased, so your input would be interesting.

I wonder why folks would continue to debate downforce on a theoretical basis when I actually measured it physically and posted the results on TB.