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Re-evaluating my amplification situation
- Thread starter Frank77
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- amplification
Hi Frank - Best of luck with these issues -take it from someone who has tried many different rigs and basses and has 19 years of gigging in the local yocal clubs playing covers - I'm not going to get rich doing this and am not going on the Tonight show LOL Thisis what I have been using and I have to turn it down most of the time
- I use a 4X10 Eden XLT (700 Watts 4ohm) and a Glasstone Custom Power Port Lil G 2X12 (600 Watts 4ohm) which is loaded with (2) Neo Faital speakers (1) Firing down and (1) firing forward all run by Genz Benz Shuttlemax 12.0 (1200 watts of output from an amp that weights only 6.75 lbs) I have to strap the head to the rig or it thunders off the top of it (notice the orange straps in the photo HaHa - No pedals - Just plug and play - I run the EQ set flat thru a Peavey Cirrus active Bass (2) 9V - People never seem to have a problem hearing me and I have had other bass players come up to me and say they hear me clear as day thru the mix I'm older now and can't haul the heavy rigs around anymore or I would haul my SVT tube head with 8x10s never had a problem being heard this way either Lol You can hear the 8X10 on this video : This was filmed by Bill's Music House who has helped many local musicians in the Maryland area - Keep Rockin, Funkin, Slappin Poppin
After using Ampeg SVT & 8 x 10 for years (this is when I had roadies to move gear), I have now been using a Markbass CMD102P combo with 2 x 10s. This is usually adequate for most gigs, putting out 300 watts as is, or 500 watts into 4 ohms if using a 4x10 extension cab. The sound on these is great and the whole combo only weighs 20 kg (44lbs)
Is that some strange camera angle artifact, ["Is it just a Trick Of The Light"...] or is the yellow bass a short-scale?
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I have a recently purchased (1st Gen) Thump15 and it's barely half as loud as the specs claim.
(Despite the THOUSAND WATTS they hype it for, the official tech specs are bi-amped 400WRMS lows and 100WRMS highs crossed over at 3K) It possibly could put out more SPL, except the built-in non-adjustable LIMITER cuts in pretty much always, once you get about half volume. So really, despite its 500WRMS 'spec' - it's no louder than a modest-quality 200W bass rig.
The plastic shells are THIN AND FRAGILE (first one I ordered arrived with a huge hole broken, despite negligible damage to the carton) so HANDLE WITH CARE. It certainly has LOTS OF BASS (low-end specs vs. light weight was my main motivation in ordering one) - but it's really lacking in high-mids, despite lots of hiss coming out the tweeter. If you like a boomy swell, with little definition, this is your stage rig! All in all, it's being relegated to "studio utility amp" duty, or maybe lo-fi side-fill for outdoor jams. Better than no amp at all, but really wasn't the portable lightweight bass guitar "Stage Monitor" solution I was looking for... (I guess the THOUSAND WATTS hype should have been a dead giveaway)
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I mostly play in acoustic settings where 200 watts and a 1x10 will get you through. I am only writing to give you my reflections on a nice rig I used to own.
I had a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 into a Benz NeoX 212t. Both were nice and I sold them to friends with "right of first refusal" to get them back.
The Shuttle was a bit sterile but did an OK job. I didn't like the preamp structure. The tube felt "flabby" and I would have been happy to just have the solid state preamp section, but it wouldn't do it. I have two GK MB200's now and they're OK. For home use I have a few early 70's Traynor tube amps and I much prefer the tone, but I wouldn't schlep them to a gig. The Magellan head is the one that has most of my attention even though I don't need a "power head" at this point.
The NeoX cab was nice. I liked the kick back wheels. It was too short (I'm 5' 8") to really be comfortable over long distances and even though they're neos, the cab was top heavy when schlepping and would tip regularly. In the end my opinion was that the mids weren't really there. It's still the nicest cab I've ever owned.
Today I'd get two 1x12 cabs. The Genzler Bass Arrays look interesting. I'm not sure how the schlep would be. They're the most interesting design I've seen lately. Sometimes I look at that stuff longingly, then have to remind myself that I sold what I had because it just sat there unused when my friends would actually use it.
I'm designing and building my own cabs, but they are built with low cost in mind and will be heavy.
Best of luck. The good news is that it's not like you've lost everything and have gigs coming up so there's some kind of urgency. If I needed something quickly and money wasn't much of an object, all Genzler - Magellan 800 head with two or three Bass Array cabs. Not "remortgage the house" expensive, reasonable size and weight, scalable and reputedly good performance.
I had a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 into a Benz NeoX 212t. Both were nice and I sold them to friends with "right of first refusal" to get them back.
The Shuttle was a bit sterile but did an OK job. I didn't like the preamp structure. The tube felt "flabby" and I would have been happy to just have the solid state preamp section, but it wouldn't do it. I have two GK MB200's now and they're OK. For home use I have a few early 70's Traynor tube amps and I much prefer the tone, but I wouldn't schlep them to a gig. The Magellan head is the one that has most of my attention even though I don't need a "power head" at this point.
The NeoX cab was nice. I liked the kick back wheels. It was too short (I'm 5' 8") to really be comfortable over long distances and even though they're neos, the cab was top heavy when schlepping and would tip regularly. In the end my opinion was that the mids weren't really there. It's still the nicest cab I've ever owned.
Today I'd get two 1x12 cabs. The Genzler Bass Arrays look interesting. I'm not sure how the schlep would be. They're the most interesting design I've seen lately. Sometimes I look at that stuff longingly, then have to remind myself that I sold what I had because it just sat there unused when my friends would actually use it.
I'm designing and building my own cabs, but they are built with low cost in mind and will be heavy.
Best of luck. The good news is that it's not like you've lost everything and have gigs coming up so there's some kind of urgency. If I needed something quickly and money wasn't much of an object, all Genzler - Magellan 800 head with two or three Bass Array cabs. Not "remortgage the house" expensive, reasonable size and weight, scalable and reputedly good performance.
As far as the nicest cab I've ever owned, that needs an asterisk. I've got four small Yamaha 12" three way PA cabs. AS312 is what I think the model number is. I think they were made for DJ's. Heavy and thick MDF cabs. Not very efficient. My P-Bass into an old Traynor tube amp into these sealed cabs is fantastic, but it'd have to be a pretty special situation before I'd lug all of that weight out of the house. An MB200 or two into a 1x10 cab or two would work most of the time.
I have a TecAmp Puma 900 and recently had Paul Tollini in Pa. build me a Fearless 212. I loved the head to begin with, it's the only amp I have used that sounds great eq. set flat, then if you do slight tweaking it gets even better but you can show up at a gig leave it set flat and sound great, very friendly from venue to venue, no need to spend time trying to dial in your tone it's already there. I have had other amps that sounded great ( SVT'S, Trace Elliot, GK, SWR ) all great heavy amps, the Trace usually didn't need tweaking from my starting point from room to room, but took some time to get that starting point ( marked eq. with whiteout) all others usually needed adjustment room to room, so I love my Puma 900. Now on to the Fearless 212, I have had SVT 810, Ampeg PR 410 HLF great cab, discontinued ( 125 lbs. ), SWR Goliath, and GK. The Fearless cab by far exceeds all those cabs, and is way lighter, 63 lbs with built-in wheels, I don't mind 63 lbs after 125 lbs. . If you need lighter but still need 212s go with two F112s, be around 300.00 more than F212. But you would be doubling drivers and horns, the clarity out of these cabs is ridiculous, punch out the the whazoo, and the fattest clean bottom end I have ever heard, this cab kicks the crap out of any of the 810 set ups I had in volume and bottom, but it's clear tight bottom, not wolfy or farting out, just pure bottom end tone that thumps your chest. I have an Mtd 6 string, one day I turned the Puma up to the 3:00 position master and gain, I have never heard an amp that loud and articulate, even the low B was tight and clear, unbelievably the cabinet was saying give me more, but for the good of the hood and so not to have change my underwear, I cut it back to the normal 9:00 on both, I practice between 9 to 10 and that is plenty volume for alot of gigs. I have only play one with it so far and and was more then pleased, a player friend of mine said projection out front with no FOH was full, rich and very clear, it will make you a better player cuz you will hear your mistakes. Lol. So my take is save your money and buy the last cabinet or cabinets you will ever buy with the Fearless F212 or 2- F112s, not saying they are the best, but they are the best I have ever heard, you would not regret having Fearless built and shipping it to Canada or driving to the US to pick up, I believe there are 5 different builders for Green boy they are listed on GB's site. Oh yeah, cab sounds great at very low volume too. Happy giggin
In a perfect world where money is no object, I would probably have ordered 2 x F112s already based on stellar reviews from just about everyone who ever got near one. It's not excluded (well, I'd start with one, obviously) but I have to check out other options. I hardly ever shop south of the border so I'd have to check first what I'd have to pay in duties to bring one back to Canada.
I'm an old school guy (65 and still rocking out) and through all the years I've been playing, nothing beats the sound of 12's and 15's. I did a gig a few years back - dance band-type stuff. I was filling in for the bands bass player. Used 2 - 1x15 cabs stacked with an Ampeg SVP pre pushing a Carvin 2000 power amp. Medium/large venue - the FOH guy turned off the bass feed because he said it was too much. Although smaller speakers do respond quicker I think they get lost in a large hall if the setup isn't right. Exception - Ampeg SVT. But they can sound compressed as well in certain situations. There are many 12 and 15" speaker cabs out now that are lighter - maybe try that route. I know about the schlepping deal, but once the music starts, that part of it fades away fast - at least for me.
Good advice, and I may take you up on that offer once I have a clearer picture of where I'm headed. I'm definitely interested in trying some Berg cabs.
That, right there, is the kind of compact, "outside of the box thinking" setup I'd like to try!
Great question so I'll throw a few opinions at it . This is in regard to playing at larger venues which I have been doing for sometime now
When we say it's not loud enough we have to think about; for whom?
1. The audience - not my problem - that is the FOH System. The days of me bringing double Ampeg 8x10 are all over. Besides that never sounded good anyway to the people in the back of the room, and the sound engineer would be totally asking me to turn down because I'm drowning everyone out.
2. My band mates on stage - what are they using for monitors, are they really asking me to be louder, do I have to crank up so loud that I blast all the microphones on stage? Can I put cabinets on both sides of the stage and turn down to get better coverage? Can they fix their own monitors?
3. Me - ah this is the important part.
Am I not loud enough or is everybody else too loud? If everybody else is too loud I can ask them to turn down LOL LOL - that never happens. The only way I can make them quieter is to use in ear monitors, IEMs. The IEMs Block all the sounds on stage pretty well and now I start adding back in what I want. First a mix from the soundboard which lets me hear everybody nicely. Then I add in my own bass exactly at the volume I want to hear. Guess what, I don't need an amplifier. Some rack mount amps work great as a preamp also, such as my Ampeg. Just leave the speaker cab at home when you don't need it.
My current rig for biggest shows is a small rack that contains a preamp, a tuner, wireless, wireless ears, and a half rack 4 channel mixer. That's it- no power amps - no speaker cabinets!
I hear everything perfectly, at a low volume, the sound guy loves me, the FOH sound is clean and crisp because there is no funky phase difference between my amp and the house speakers, and everybody in the band enjoys having a lower stage volume, with just the right amount of bass they want to hear. The whole rig weighs about 20 pounds.
Like everybody else I tried all the combinations of multiple speakers, 2000 W amplifiers, custom this and that, blah blah blah.
When I play a smaller club I actually do bring a 2 x 10 and 500 W amplifier along with my rack. But the only reason for this is to make up for a crappy sound system that cannot handle the bass.
A good set of in-ear monitors and receiver will cost you $1000. Well worth it if you aren't paying for and schlepping around a big amplifier rig.
But -- if you are so old school that you just need that amp on stage, there are some other considerations. I guess I could get a fold up cardboard box that looks like an AMPEG 8 x 10 but...
1. What is loudness? it is SPL or sound pressure level. SPL is generated by the speaker cone moving as a piston that generates air pressure. The SPL is a combination of the area of a speaker and the distance the speaker moves in and out. In simplest terms a speaker is an air piston. Higher wattage can make a speaker move in and out a further distance, up to a limit, which generates more SPL. As a speaker moves in and out to it's limits it starts getting distorted. So to increase SPL you need more area, a larger speaker. A 10 inch speaker has about 75 in.² of area, A 12 inch speaker has about 108 in.².
Remember pie R squared. So going up or down 2 inches in speaker size makes a huge difference to the piston.
On the other hand because the power ratio to SPL is logarithmic, to double The SPL you need 10 times the power!
With an ideal speaker system, a 1000 W amplifier is really only eight times as loud as a 1 W system! This is why adding more speakers, which gives you more area, increases loudness much faster.
The tiny 6 inch or 8 inch speakers generate decent sound because they have a long throw, or move in and out quite a distance without distorting. However the cabinet has to be almost perfectly tuned to take advantage of that, which is why 6 inch speaker cabinets can be very expensive. Plus they get heavy quickly because you need 4 speakers to get the same area as one 12 inch speaker, and each of those 4 speakers has a magnet in a frame and other heavy non sound producing parts.
On the Fearless 112s- they are great - I have a 112 and a 212. Greenboy Audio does actually license the design for local builders to produce. If you go to the Greenboy website, you can get names of builders who are certified to make these for you. You used to be able to buy the plans also. I am not sure if you still can but if you are handy they are well worth it. The Fearless designs use a speaker (Faital ?) that allows a lot of in and out motion, and a tuned enclosure that prevents the speaker from unloading at very low frequencies. The B sounds great. Typically they are ported in the front to get the sound coming from the rear of the speaker also which increases the efficiency, meaning, you need fewer watts to get higher SPL.
Well - as a engineer and bass player for many years I think I have made all the mistakes and bought all the gear based on what other people say, only to be disappointed. If I had any amp up to 10, and still cant hear it, the stage volume must be stupid loud - not good for anyone who cares about their hearing.
I think the key is to think about your particular situation and whether you really want more volume or do you just want to hear better?
In my case for a larger venues, it works wonderful to have no power amplifier.
And my back thanks me every gig!
Good luck !
dB
When we say it's not loud enough we have to think about; for whom?
1. The audience - not my problem - that is the FOH System. The days of me bringing double Ampeg 8x10 are all over. Besides that never sounded good anyway to the people in the back of the room, and the sound engineer would be totally asking me to turn down because I'm drowning everyone out.
2. My band mates on stage - what are they using for monitors, are they really asking me to be louder, do I have to crank up so loud that I blast all the microphones on stage? Can I put cabinets on both sides of the stage and turn down to get better coverage? Can they fix their own monitors?
3. Me - ah this is the important part.
Am I not loud enough or is everybody else too loud? If everybody else is too loud I can ask them to turn down LOL LOL - that never happens. The only way I can make them quieter is to use in ear monitors, IEMs. The IEMs Block all the sounds on stage pretty well and now I start adding back in what I want. First a mix from the soundboard which lets me hear everybody nicely. Then I add in my own bass exactly at the volume I want to hear. Guess what, I don't need an amplifier. Some rack mount amps work great as a preamp also, such as my Ampeg. Just leave the speaker cab at home when you don't need it.
My current rig for biggest shows is a small rack that contains a preamp, a tuner, wireless, wireless ears, and a half rack 4 channel mixer. That's it- no power amps - no speaker cabinets!
I hear everything perfectly, at a low volume, the sound guy loves me, the FOH sound is clean and crisp because there is no funky phase difference between my amp and the house speakers, and everybody in the band enjoys having a lower stage volume, with just the right amount of bass they want to hear. The whole rig weighs about 20 pounds.
Like everybody else I tried all the combinations of multiple speakers, 2000 W amplifiers, custom this and that, blah blah blah.
When I play a smaller club I actually do bring a 2 x 10 and 500 W amplifier along with my rack. But the only reason for this is to make up for a crappy sound system that cannot handle the bass.
A good set of in-ear monitors and receiver will cost you $1000. Well worth it if you aren't paying for and schlepping around a big amplifier rig.
But -- if you are so old school that you just need that amp on stage, there are some other considerations. I guess I could get a fold up cardboard box that looks like an AMPEG 8 x 10 but...
1. What is loudness? it is SPL or sound pressure level. SPL is generated by the speaker cone moving as a piston that generates air pressure. The SPL is a combination of the area of a speaker and the distance the speaker moves in and out. In simplest terms a speaker is an air piston. Higher wattage can make a speaker move in and out a further distance, up to a limit, which generates more SPL. As a speaker moves in and out to it's limits it starts getting distorted. So to increase SPL you need more area, a larger speaker. A 10 inch speaker has about 75 in.² of area, A 12 inch speaker has about 108 in.².
Remember pie R squared. So going up or down 2 inches in speaker size makes a huge difference to the piston.
On the other hand because the power ratio to SPL is logarithmic, to double The SPL you need 10 times the power!
With an ideal speaker system, a 1000 W amplifier is really only eight times as loud as a 1 W system! This is why adding more speakers, which gives you more area, increases loudness much faster.
The tiny 6 inch or 8 inch speakers generate decent sound because they have a long throw, or move in and out quite a distance without distorting. However the cabinet has to be almost perfectly tuned to take advantage of that, which is why 6 inch speaker cabinets can be very expensive. Plus they get heavy quickly because you need 4 speakers to get the same area as one 12 inch speaker, and each of those 4 speakers has a magnet in a frame and other heavy non sound producing parts.
On the Fearless 112s- they are great - I have a 112 and a 212. Greenboy Audio does actually license the design for local builders to produce. If you go to the Greenboy website, you can get names of builders who are certified to make these for you. You used to be able to buy the plans also. I am not sure if you still can but if you are handy they are well worth it. The Fearless designs use a speaker (Faital ?) that allows a lot of in and out motion, and a tuned enclosure that prevents the speaker from unloading at very low frequencies. The B sounds great. Typically they are ported in the front to get the sound coming from the rear of the speaker also which increases the efficiency, meaning, you need fewer watts to get higher SPL.
Well - as a engineer and bass player for many years I think I have made all the mistakes and bought all the gear based on what other people say, only to be disappointed. If I had any amp up to 10, and still cant hear it, the stage volume must be stupid loud - not good for anyone who cares about their hearing.
I think the key is to think about your particular situation and whether you really want more volume or do you just want to hear better?
In my case for a larger venues, it works wonderful to have no power amplifier.
And my back thanks me every gig!
Good luck !
dB
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Having played bass for over 50 years and using many combinations from home builts to 4 SVT's with 8 8X10 cabinets, I can give you my humble opinion. My favorite rig is an Eden Navigator ( though any good head would do) going into a QSC power amp. You need reserve watts. ( I have heard a lot about the new Fender Rumbles as to weight and sound.) I have 1,000 watts available if needed, and less if desired. The PA should carry it but as you said, you need to hear yourself and carry it at times. My cabinets are 2 - Eden 210 XLT's. they are reasonable and you can split them up for smaller gigs. STACK THEM VERTICALLY giving you 4- 10" speakers in a vertical array. they couple together and with the floor plus you hear the top one. The cone of bass sound that comes out is more conical and vertical so it throws more focused than the usual bass rumble. The speakers are also punchy and will handle a 5 string just fine. The tweeters add the sparkle if needed. I have never been a fan of the 'boutique' amps though I don't record much. Hope this helps.
I know what your problem is. The sound man at the show was a numbnuts. I'm assuming your rig was mic'd through the PA? It happens. Most club and event sound guys are f'en retards. And though I don't know what kind of music you play, it wouldn't hurt to have a 15" or 18" BASS SPEAKER! lol..
Honestly, if your volume is normally good enough for you, it's likely the new stage put you in a standingwave and frequency would be more of the issue than volume. If your DI was sends a pre signal to FoH, I'd suggest taking a look at your Eq in such situations before replacing your gear.
but also, good lord those drivers are tiny for bass. I'd didn't realize how small they were before I commented..
I would definitely take a good look at some 10 inch or 12 inch cabs. you'll be floored with the difference.
My rig is a TC electronic RH450 and a TC 212 cabinet. I've never ever had a problem with the quality of tone or volume.
I would definitely take a good look at some 10 inch or 12 inch cabs. you'll be floored with the difference.
My rig is a TC electronic RH450 and a TC 212 cabinet. I've never ever had a problem with the quality of tone or volume.
Good info, thanks.
To answer the question you ask in your closing remarks, my objective is twofold: To hear myself better and make the schlep easier. The idea of IEMs is attractive, but there are situations where you need an amp regardless...plus I enjoy hearing my bass "out loud" (i.e. w/o headphones). I wear ear protection at all times when playing at "full band volume" and I never crank things up needlessly. This is not about wanting to achieve Motorhead-like, painfully loud volume : Not my thing, never was.
Looking back (and as much as I hate to admit it), my current rig never really had enough oompf to comfortably keep up with a band outside of a quiet-ish jazz context without having to set the master volume very high. When I bought it, I was part of two different projects. Band A: Jazz trio (drums, upright bass, keys/vocals), and Band B (which came about slightly after Band A): A rock cover band w/ drums, bass guitar, 2 guitars, keys/vocals. My rig was usually more than enough for Band A, but always seemed to struggle cutting through with Band B. I think the main problem, as many have pointed out, is truly the drivers : I love how they respond and how they sound, but they simply do not move enough air. If I compare the output with other rigs that I've used in the rent-by-the-hour rehearsal studios my current band goes to, the master volume of amps in a similar ballpark watt-wise was always kept below 50% and could be heard much, much better at full band volume. Examples of such setups would be a GK 700RB or MB500 through one 8-ohm 4x10. I remember being totally amazed at how insanely loud the MB500 sounded (compared to my rig) at a relatively low master volume setting the first time I used it. Again don't get me wrong, it's not strictly about loudness, it's about being able to "cut through", for lack of a better term, in a full band mix - at any volume. I couldn't explain the physics behind it all, but with my main band I always hear myself better with a different setup than mine! I've had enough and I'm going to change that...
So, there's that: I want to try different drivers...and then there's the fact that moving all of this stuff has become a true, massive pain in the butt. Hence my intention to get a setup that's the polar opposite of what I have now: Class D head, lightweight and efficient cab(s). Based on the other rigs I've sampled so far, I'm pretty sure 400W into a 8-ohm cab loaded with larger / more efficient drivers would already be a big improvement over what I have for bass guitar in a large band. It's more of a want than a need, but I'm not going to go totally crazy, plus I can afford it. If I find something that really checks all the boxes I'll try to sell my PJB stuff, but I think it's unlikely to happen (both to find something that sounds this good with upright, and to find a buyer). We'll see.
Anyway, I think the way I'll approach this is try to find a head I like first (trying them with whatever cabs I can use in a given store), then take this head with me and try all the cabs I can until I find the right one(s). At this point the heads I'm particularly interested in (in ascending order of price tag):
- Quilter Bass Block 800 : Could be difficult to try (one store carries them, but they're not in stock and only god knows when they'll get more, if ever), but I like the form factor and the approach to EQ. Many have said that it's neutral / transparent sounding, which is a feature I like;
- Mesa D800: One store usually has them in stock. Gets rave reviews here. Not sure if it has a signature tone or if it is transparent-ish.
- GK MB800: Most stores have them. GK is solid stuff...if the tone pleases me I doubt I could go wrong with their heads.
There's also Markbass stuff available here but last time I tried them (LMIII, Big Bang) I didn't exactly fall in love. Haven't really given a chance to TC electronic gear, so I might give it a try too.
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Oh trust me dude, I've already experienced the difference! This rig was bought with upright bass as its main focus, and it truly sounds great for that purpose...it's when I'm playing bass guitar with a louder band that it runs out of breath!
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IMO: you definitely need at least 1(one) 4x10 cab (get a furniture dolly to aid in your schlep) for the larger gigs. Rule of sound #1: The more people in the venue, the more that the BASS GETS ABSORBED. I would leave 1 of the cabinets with full floor/stage contact to increase fullness (recommended by Mesa amps) and put the other on a tilt stand to aid projection.
I used to haul two Ampeg 410's with a 300 watt amp. Now I am running the opposite direction. If the board is any good I have a monitor mix sent to a set of in-ears instead. If FOH is good, the sound guy is always happy that I am running direct with a smaller rig. These days I'm using a GK 250 watt combo for the stage, but the PA does the real work. My back is much happier and I can always hear what I need in the bigger venues.
