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Real Book Fun!!

#22
I've decided to pass on treble cleff for the moment and focus on the bass clef. Going back and forth was getting me nowhere fast. But I've grabbed all of these for future reference, none the less. I definitely want to be able to read either clef down the road.

Thanks, Brian!
 
#23
Total FWIW-YMMV-IME-IMO here, obviously depending on your goals and the types of gigs you're after, but...

Two things worth having in your bag of tricks. First is the ability to at least hack your way through treble clef. Being able to respond, "You betcha," when asked, "Can you double the melody/guitar/sax line there?" is a nice way to make sure you get called back.

Second is the ability to read "true" bass clef. Outside of our own little circle, it's not common (enough) knowledge that bass parts are generally written '8vb' - meaning that they're played/sounded an octave lower than written (as opposed to '8va', where the notes are played an octave higher than notated). In any case, the goal is the same - to ensure that parts are easy to read. However, if I had a dime for every time I was handed a piano part or even a bass part not written 8vb, I'd have another Roscoe in the fleet. :D
 
#24
I think I've heard of that... is that where the line is written in treble clef, but you're supposed to play it an octave down?

I've got the Real Book 6th edition written in bass clef, and it seems to be just that (bass clef).

But, yeah, I definitely intend to be proficient with both at some point - assuming I stick with this, which is probably not a good assumption :) But for now, I need to divide and conquer. Going back and forth between the two was hurting my head :help: :D
 
#25
RocketMusic said:
I think I've heard of that... is that where the line is written in treble clef, but you're supposed to play it an octave down?

I've got the Real Book 6th edition written in bass clef, and it seems to be just that (bass clef).

But, yeah, I definitely intend to be proficient with both at some point - assuming I stick with this, which is probably not a good assumption :) But for now, I need to divide and conquer. Going back and forth between the two was hurting my head :help: :D
Click to expand...

This is about as far as I got in my music theroy studies, but I think I can answer this.

The bass clef, as we read it, is actually an octave higher than we play, the '8vb' is actually used so that our notes aren't a pile off the lines, so its easier to read.

In fact, on a standard bass clef, I'm pretty sure a guitar can hit most of the pitches.

I'm sure Jerry or PE will come along and explain it better, or tell us where I'm wrong.
 
#26
RocketMusic said:
I think I've heard of that... is that where the line is written in treble clef, but you're supposed to play it an octave down?
Click to expand...
Not quite - still the same clef. You're just trying to keep things on the staff, as opposed to in the ledger lines, either above or below the staff. Example...

The note, 'E' @ second fret, 'D' string (or seventh fret, 'A' string). "True" bass clef has this notated on the first ledger line below the staff. 8vb notation places it where we like it - within the staff, on the space above the middle line. I don't want to make this more confusing, and I'm not doing a good job of explaining it clearly, but hopefully I'm getting the goal across of just being aware of things. You generally know it when you see it - meaning that the score you see has all the notes in the ledger lines below the staff. This is where you thank the heavens above if chord symbols are included. :D

RocketMusic said:
I've got the Real Book 6th edition written in bass clef, and it seems to be just that (bass clef).
Click to expand...
Great book, and it has a lot of corrected changes over previous editions. Which of course creates its own problems when you're on a gig and the guitar player is reading out of the 5th edition. :)
 
#27
The short: Bass sounds an octave lower than the written pitch. It's a transposing instrument, it's notated in bass clef an octave higher than it sounds to avoid excessive ledger lines (same with upright).

Not typically really something you have to think about reading bass parts specifically but like Jerry said, it happens and if you're reading from a piano part for example you need to be aware of it.

FWIW: I keep two copies of each Real Book and just switch every other week practicing and/or every other gig between bass and treble books to stay sharp on both. You can also use a grand staff when you're transcribing for practice. Middle C (1st leger line above bass stave, 1st below treble stave), keeping with the 8vb transposition there's a good amount of cross-over to work with.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] a fun little game you can use to drill yourself, has bass (F clef), treble (G clef), and a grand staff (both).

So now that you've got the full peanut galleries varying explanations (all saying the same thing) you should be good and confused.... ;)

-PE
 
#30
Total ECHO. 'Soul Serenade' is such a great album. I'm a huge fan - of the whole band - but I pick up any recording with the name, "Derek Trucks" on it, just on principle. His first album is still a great benchmark too, with nice versions of Footprints, Mr. PC, So What, and just a terrific arrangement of Naima.
 
#32
oren said:
Sounds great! I really dig the harmony line the second time through!
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Wish I could take credit for it, but that's on the Duke... or at least whoever transcibed what he thought Duke was doing :)

I think this is what I'm most excited about regarding this project I've set for myself... I'm going to be picking up rhythms, melodies, harmonys, etc that OTHER people came up with. What better way to get out of your own playing ruts?!?
 
#33
PlanetEarth said:
The short: Bass sounds an octave lower than the written pitch. It's a transposing instrument, it's notated in bass clef an octave higher than it sounds to avoid excessive ledger lines (same with upright).
Click to expand...

One of the biggest nightmares of my gigging career was showing up to rehearse a show with a big band (I think a local Emmy Awards thing or something in the 70's when they were still doing the classic big band orchestra for these types of things), and the charts had the bass line written where it sounded (i.e., an octave below). My gosh... I was scufflin' and clammin'. I made it through by the skin of my teeth.

That night also resulted in one of the classic backhanded compliments I've gotten of all time. After the show, the old band leader came up to me and said 'well, your intonation is great'. Of course, I was playing a fretted electric bass:D... I don't think the guy even really understood the concept of frets on an electric bass. At least he was a nice enough cat to try to say something positive.

Whew... haven't thought about that in many years:eek:
 
#34
^ FWIW: two things I try to do in this situation is either start thinking in intervals or picture an imaginary stave. E.g. 'A' (bottom space of stave in bass clef), if it's written at pitch an octave lower I imagine it two octaves higher (i.e. A3, top line of stave in bass clef). So anything lower than 3 leger lines below the stave is just like moving down from A3... If that makes any sense.

-PE
 
#35
PlanetEarth said:
^ FWIW: two things I try to do in this situation is either start thinking in intervals or picture an imaginary stave. E.g. 'A' (bottom line of stave in bass clef), if it's written at pitch an octave lower I imagine it two octaves higher (i.e. A3, top line of stave in bass clef). So anything lower than 3 leger lines below the stave is just like moving down from A3... If that makes any sense.

-PE
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+1 I eventually visualized the 'stave' and made it through. It was NOT fun. Given how few reading gigs I do now (well, lots of chart reading, but very few written out bass lines), I would TOTALLY fold at this point!
 
#36
As Brian and Ken have both mentioned, this is a difficult and ongoing process. Or, as Jaco once said, "You either read, or you don't." By that black & white menu, I'm most definitely in the "you don't" category. Throw me some accidentals, key & time signature changes, and more black dots than open space, and I whine like a schoolgirl. :D

Fortunately, it's very rare that I see a score for the first time at a gig. A few rundowns in the practice room, at slow speeds and with few distractions, and I'm generally ready to go. Over in the Roscoe forum I shared a few of my recent charts - there was a Charleston medley with a tuba solo, and a full-orchestra show tune arranged for piano & bass - both of these would've knocked me out if I had to perform them on-the-spot.

Nonetheless, like Brian shared, I try my best to stay sharp. Reading out of books improves your playing vocabulary as well as your reading one, as does taking the time to learn melodies - especially with any vocal inflections. This stuff will serve the music well and is one of those things that differentiates you from other cats when it comes time for repeat calls.
 
#37
Man, that makes me feel better, Jerry :) You're still well ahead of me, but I feel good that I can at least imagine myself catching up with you. Sight reading doesn't seem even remotely possible at the moment. :rollno: :help:

Right now, my approach is to find a version of the song I'm trying to read & listen to it a bunch to familiarize myself with the melody. Then I'll put the recording away and go try to read the tune. That's a hunt and peck effort at the moment. I'm fighting the notes, the rhythms, the fretboard... pretty much everything! My ear is probably involved more than I'd like it to be, it feels like I'm cheating. Anyway, once I feel like I've read the part correctly, I'll go back to the recorded song and play along. I'll make adjustments if needed, and then the recording starts!

Long term, I want to be able to read a song I've never heard before and at least get close. But for now, I just want to put a few easy wins under my belt by using the recordings to "inform" my reading. Eventually, I'll try to cut that cord.
 
#38
RocketMusic said:
That's a hunt and peck effort at the moment. I'm fighting the notes, the rhythms, the fretboard... pretty much everything! My ear is probably involved more than I'd like it to be, it feels like I'm cheating
Click to expand...

$0.02 - I know you didn't completely mean it this way but, just to be picky, nothing wrong with using your ear (it is music after all ;)), any combination of skills that gets it done is accomplishment, not cheating... FWIW: I look at it like this, if I see a rhythmic pattern repeating on a written page I know I don't have to read that rhythm, if I can anticipate the change I don't have to read that either, so now I'm just watching the form, if that's typical (e.g. aaba) then I don't have to read that either, only thing left, any specific lines, rests, etc... if there's none or they are easily memorable then I'm done reading for the tune and free to focus 100% on the more elusive vibe/spirit/energy going on. The sheet becomes more like a rear view mirror with just an occasional glance if needed but the main focus - the road in front....

Anyway, if you find yourself getting frustrated it might help to break down the components a little rather than all at once while learning. Break the components down into notes on the stave, rhythms, playing, etc..

Try that game I posted, it's just note placement on the stave, get that comfortable, at the same time try the rhythm practice in GNU Solfege, it requires only rhythmic notation. Broken down like that each will come fast and subsequently merge nicely. From there, rather than going right to your instrument, just find a recording of the tune and follow along on the printed music, after all this, go to your instrument.

Just a thought, but might make it easier to swallow at first.

Sheezzzz I hope these posts don't sound preachy.... I always feel like I'm just running off at the mouth with these sorts of posts, like who the hell am I to be saying how to do something.. LOL! Someone please tell me to shut up if it moves to useless banter.

-PE
 
#39
Yeah, I was playing that game this morning, and I'm already up to half of your score!! Not that it's a competition, but it's nice to have a benchmark to compare against.

I'm still doing the relative calculation thing (I know where C is, and that's 2 notes below... so the answer is "A"). That's slowing me down. I need to be able to look at a note and just say "that's an A". That game really helps drive you in that direction. Pretty cool.
 
#40
All great stuff...and speaking of road maps...we've yet to chat about D.C., D.S., coda(s), repeats, endings, dynamic markings, etc....all the good stuff that, along with the notation, comprises the written language of our art form.

FWIW, first thing I do when I see a chart is to look at the navigation/road map. Where are the repeats, endings, D.S./D.C/coda(s)... Then, are they are any key changes or time signature changes? Any special dynamic markings or other notes? This can take a few seconds or a few minutes, but it really helps get me off on a good start. After that, I look at the changes and notation, trying to pick out anything that might be difficult, important to the song, etc.

Brian's comments - as always - are very apt. You'll often find common things, such as phrases that are repeated throughout the piece, that make any chart much less daunting. Spending a little time up front to break things down can usually make things go quite smoothly.
 

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