Recommend a Vintage 15" Driver

[D.M.N.]

Has anyone ever looked at the 200S cabinet in light of Theile-Small parameters. I can't help but imagine the port is much too large.

I can't say I have, but I would be interested in seeing what the 200s and 2000s cabs come out as according to TS. I can say that despite whatever the results would be, both of those cabs are fantastic designs. I have never played a modern and commercially available 15" cab that can touch a 2000s with K140s......

 

[jnewmark]

JBL D/K140; K would last a little longer

Altec 418B or 421

I don't think Jensen made a C15K back then; a couple of P15L (Leslie) speakers would probably be your safest bet with Jensen. I doubt if the old C15N's would hold up, although many old bass cabs used them.

I'd go with Altecs or E-140s if I had to have JBL's at the volume you're talking about.

Funny, I just noticed this thread about 10 minutes after I was cruIsing the JBL site, and found something I don't quite understand. The E140 was the successor of the K 140, yet the E140 HAS LESS XMAX THAN THE K140 ! Frequency range is the same. How can the E140 take more power than the K140? BTW, I think the K or the E would be great in that cab !

 

[fu22ba55]

BTW, I think the K or the E would be great in that cab !

Others have also told me the JBLs would sound mighty in this cab...

As it turns out I went with a couple of used EV15Ls, simply because I think the JBLs are too nice. I tend to push my cabs pretty hard, and EV15L recones are cheaper than those JBL recones.

Someday though, when I'm old and (more) grey, I'll drop some JBLs in it.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

How can the E140 take more power than the K140? !

With a larger gauge voice coil. Handling more power doesn't mean it can do anything with it.

 

[gbarchus]

"Handling more power doesn't mean it can do anything with it."

Isn't that the problem with modern speaker design? With the advent of high powered amplifiers, speaker manufacturers traded efficiency and response to handle the power. ...why some would still prefer old 60 watt, alnico drivers.

Gale

 

[jnewmark]

With a larger gauge voice coil. Handling more power doesn't mean it can do anything with it.

So, if you had to choose between the K140 or the E140 in a 215 cab, powered by a 400 watt bass amp, which one ? I would think you would want the one with the larger Xmax, which would be the K140, yet I always thought that JBL made the E140 as an improvement over the K140 ?

 

[nysbob]

So, if you had to choose between the K140 or the E140 in a 215 cab, powered by a 400 watt bass amp, which one ? I would think you would want the one with the larger Xmax, which would be the K140, yet I always thought that JBL made the E140 as an improvement over the K140 ?

I don't think there is a huge difference sonically, Johnny.

I still use both K & E series 145s and I can't tell much difference between one and the other. If I recall correctly, they changed the letters because the magnet material changed, and upped the power handling spec a little.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

The K and E series have very different specs because they have totally different motors. When they changed the magnet from alnico to ceramic they changed everything. Higher power handling was included as part of the changes, but that higher power handling was not accompanied with longer excursion.

 

[RoadRanger]

Not sure if it is relevant to this thread but fliptops.net recommends the Eminence Beta 15A as the best currently made replacement for the old CTS square magnet 15's. One thing to keep in mind is that generally an increase in power handling and/or voice coil size is accompanied by a decrease in high end response.

Back to the OP: I'd not worry about the drivers being mismatched as it appears that cab has separate compartments for the two drivers? Also as you are only looking to run 200 tube watts into it, lower power rated drivers will sound more like the originals IMO. If the Beta 15A's are good enough for the vintage fliptop crowd I can's see where there's any advantage to using anything more expensive ( except perhaps "bragging rights" ) ?

 

[mark roberts]

JBL D/K140; K would last a little longer

Altec 418B or 421

I don't think Jensen made a C15K back then; a couple of P15L (Leslie) speakers would probably be your safest bet with Jensen. I doubt if the old C15N's would hold up, although many old bass cabs used them.

I'd go with Altecs or E-140s if I had to have JBL's at the volume you're talking about.

+1 on the Altec 421. I used a pair of 421-8H's in a Fender Showman cab topped with a black-faced Fender Bassman. Used a Gibson Thunderbird. Nice sound!

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Not sure if it is relevant to this thread but fliptops.net recommends the Eminence Beta 15A as the best currently made replacement for the old CTS square magnet 15's. One thing to keep in mind is that generally an increase in power handling and/or voice coil size is accompanied by a decrease in high end response.

Back to the OP: I'd not worry about the drivers being mismatched as it appears that cab has separate compartments for the two drivers? Also as you are only looking to run 200 tube watts into it, lower power rated drivers will sound more like the originals IMO. If the Beta 15A's are good enough for the vintage fliptop crowd I can's see where there's any advantage to using anything more expensive ( except perhaps "bragging rights" ) ?

The Beta 15 is very close to the original CTS spec, which was about as far as you could get from the specs of any JBL/Altec/EV product. There were advantages to the CTS, and therefore the Beta 15 (and Delta 15 too) with very low power amps, roughly 50 watts and less. Those advantages disappear with more power, and even in lower power situations some just prefer the tone of the JBL/Altec/EVs. They all had considerably better highs than the CTS, the product of much tighter manufacturing tolerances that allowed far smaller plate to coil gaps.

 

[RoadRanger]

I don't like to put more than 50-100 watts into a 15 as I think more low power cones sound better than fewer high power ones but it's all a matter of taste I guess. In this case I think the former is (and sounds) more vintage than the latter - YMMV .

 

[gbarchus]

Of all the JBL series I prefer the D140F for bass but it only handles 120 watts, not that I haven't put 300 watts into them, carefully. I am currently using an alnico K145 and prefer this speaker to the "E" series even though it has higher power handling abilities.

Gale

 

[jnewmark]

Of all the JBL series I prefer the D140F for bass but it only handles 120 watts, not that I haven't put 300 watts into them, carefully. I am currently using an alnico K145 and prefer this speaker to the "E" series even though it has higher power handling abilities.

Gale

I always assumed the K145 was for keyboards, organs, etc. Actually, the E145 has more Xmax.

 

[johnk_10]

i currently have 8 K series JBLs (6 K140's and 2 K120's). i've owned alot of D's and E's and the K's are my favorite. IME, everytime, the E's were more brittle/stiff sounding than the D's or K's.

Orange County Speaker (that have been an authorized JBL service station since the early 70's) told me that if you currently need to recone a K series, JBL now uses the E kit on them. I had them recone a K140 a few years ago in an amp that i was selling and it sounded exactly like my original NOS ones.

BTW, i've owned alot of Altec 421A's over the years and never liked them one bit. they always sounded like a megaphone (ice pick in the ear) to me.

 

[madmachinist]

i don't believe that excursion is as important in a MI driver as
efficiency and frequency balance and tone.

most high X-MAX speakers are too hi-fi for bass guitar,
have no mid-bass , and soak up much more power than a
typical bass amp can provide to get high volume.

if you intend to be heard,(low bass doesn't cut through a mix)
you don't want a subwoofer. you COULD add a subwwofer,
BAG-END style , w/ 1000watts + driving it at SUB frequencies,
to complement your bass amp....but at ~80hz and lower.
that's the bass you feel in your bones!

 

[BassmanPaul]

i don't believe that excursion is as important in a MI driver as
efficiency and frequency balance and tone.

We are talking bass here so I couldn't disagree more. The more Xmax a driver has the more air it can push on the lower end.

 

[greenboy]

i believe everybody should use whatever they like and can get their hands on. and if reconing regularly is part of the equation, well... ; }

Horse for courses, really, though.

 

[nysbob]

I always assumed the K145 was for keyboards, organs, etc. Actually, the E145 has more Xmax.

It's also one tough & heavy SOB. I love 'em, but also realize they're not for everybody.