Double Bass recording with band in one room???

[danengland]

Hi
I am doing a live jazz recording with double bass, drums, guitar and tenor in a week or so.I have done some recording before but not with the band in one room.. I have a DPA mic which attaches to the strings below the bridge and provides pretty good isolation, and a realist pickup. I don't want to take a line out of the pickup for recording because it doesn't sound good, but I will need to use an amp (Gallien Krueger MB150S)to hear myself and for the band to hear me. Recording with headphones isn't really an option, as it affects the way the band plays, and I find it harder to play dynamically. I figure I will probably put the amp some distance away, and use a screen to shield the bass mic from drums and amp.

Has anyone recorded like this, with a mic or two on the bass but also amplifing through the pickup? Anyone ever put a mic on the amp too to add to bass sound? Any suggestions?

 

[bolo]

This may not answer all your questions directly but - you could use headphones w/ a mono mix and only put one side over your ear, and leave your other ear exposed to hear what's going on with your bass (acoustically) and everything else in the room. I've even seen headphones w/ only one earpiece on one side - same concept.

I have recorded (in a very modest home setting) with a pickup signal, one mic in front of the bridge in a trad position, and a small consdenser up near my left hand and the FB. We blended the three signals differently for each song. And we used a high pass filter for the p/u channel. If you have a high quality preamp like say an Avalon U5, the p/u might sound pretty good. Depends on a lot of things I guess, including the sound you're striving for, type of music, density of the mix, etc.

I don't know how the DPA handles bleed. They certainly have a very fine reputation as instrument mics AFAIK. But even if bleed is present, as long as it sounds natural, it might not be such a bad thing.

Sounds like you have some experimenting to do. Fun stuff though! Hopefully the engineer is patient and will be willing to work with you.

 

[Dave Martin]

Typically, when I record a trio in one room, the bassist does not use his amp; compared to the sound of a good instrument and a decent mic, nothing coming out of the amp is useable for my tastes.
On the other hand, the groups who have worked here almost always hear headphones; with a decent headphone mix, it shouldn't interfere with the way that you play OR the band's dynamics. Why do you feel that headphones interfere with your playing?

 

[larry]

The trick is to use a main stereo pair for the band - but position yourself so that there is a good amount of bass in the main pair. Then you only need a tiny bit of your spot mic if any. If you want the bass to appear in the middle in the stereo image - obviously you'll set up in the middle.

There will be bleed in the bass mic. Using a little bit for presence is fine. If you need a lot of the bass mic, it's going to make it tough to get a good mix.

 

[danengland]

Thanks for your advice guys, much appreciated. The main reason I haven't like using headphones in the past is due to doing things low budget, not necessarily in a studio, with not enough bass in my mix, where it was hard to hear the drums and vice versa as well as you could normally. Hopefully We can use headphones and I will try what you have suggested. As you say Bolo, I figure a little bleed in the DPA isn't too much of a bad thing, as it is quite well isolated anyway.

 

[jacobmyers]

The trick is to use a main stereo pair for the band - but position yourself so that there is a good amount of bass in the main pair. Then you only need a tiny bit of your spot mic if any. If you want the bass to appear in the middle in the stereo image - obviously you'll set up in the middle.

There will be bleed in the bass mic. Using a little bit for presence is fine. If you need a lot of the bass mic, it's going to make it tough to get a good mix.

I'm with you 100% on the stereo pair. I prefer to record using this method. Depending on the room - and the microphones - a stereo pair will capture most of what you need to make a great-sounding mix.

The key to this method is having an engineer who really knows their microphones and the room (and how the instruments and even the bodies of the players will interact with the room and the mics). The spot mics are just there to reinforce what the stereo pair captures. The only time I'd find leakage (or "bleed") undesirable is when doing overdubs (which isn't necessary if you're working with musicians who are worth recording).

"(I)f you're going for a more live sound ... a little leakage can be a beautiful thing. I'm a fan of that style of recording - if you've got musicians who can play, I always say leakage is your friend. Like for bass, once the sound goes through the kick drum and the tom mics and that low end gets added, everything just gets huge. That's something you can't duplicate any other way."
- Dusty Wakeman, quoted from Mix Online

 

[bloodyjack]

I use a Sure VP88 mid-side stereo mic set in the middle of the room and thats it. The cool thing about mid-side mics is that you only have one microphone and you can adjust the stereo width in post.
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[Dave Martin]

I use a Sure VP88 mid-side stereo mic set in the middle of the room and thats it. The cool thing about mid-side mics is that you only have one microphone and you can adjust the stereo width in post.
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And it can work great, as long as you understand that M/S was developed for mono compatibility, not for 'stereo'.

 

[larry]

I use a Sure VP88 mid-side stereo mic set in the middle of the room and thats it. The cool thing about mid-side mics is that you only have one microphone and you can adjust the stereo width in post.
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In practice it may be ok, but it may not be optimal. The truth is that mid-side has to be in front of the ensemble to properly capture the stereo image without phase problems. I love M/S, and I have a pair of Beyer ribbon mics for that purpose. But if direct sound reaches them from behind, it can sound really bad. Properly done, it is the most gorgeous sound in the world.

Having said that, if you change the mid mic to an omni, you can place the mics in the middle of the group. I do that all the time when recording live in situations where you cannot place mics out front.

PS - If you can raise the VP88 above the group pointed down, and the ceiling is high or not very reflective that could work really well too.

 

[larry]

And it can work great, as long as you understand that M/S was developed for mono compatibility, not for 'stereo'.

I often love M/S so I'd like to add to this statement. One thing that can go wrong with M/S is that the center mic hears something drastically different from the side mic. Then when summed to mono you throw the balance way off.

This relates to not having the mics too close in. They have to be far back enough that both mics get a balanced sound, and no direct sound hits from behind. If you listen back and switch between mono and stereo, you should not hear instrument levels radically change.

IOW, when placing the mics get a good mono sound first. Then the stereo should sound good.

 

[bloodyjack]

I have had great success with it remember we are talking about recording a group of people live in a basement.
I feed the VP88 into a Sound Devices Mix-pre field mixer then into my Video camera and a digital 24-96 flash recorder for a backup, when videoing bands and it sounds fantastic.
I have yet to find a video of a band on you tube that has sound anywhere close.

 

[larry]

I have had great success with it remember we are talking about recording a group of people live in a basement.
I feed the VP88 into a Sound Devices Mix-pre field mixer then into my Video camera and a digital 24-96 flash recorder for a backup, when videoing bands and it sounds fantastic.
I have yet to find a video of a band on you tube that has sound anywhere close.

I've heard the VP88 is a good mic; I have not used it. Perhaps it is more forgiving than the Beyer M/S combo I use.

Can you post a link to the video? I'd like to hear it.

 

[danengland]

Hi
In the end, I've spoken to the guy, he's pretty set on recording with just my DPA mic and micing Pickup and DIing amp. This isn't really what I want to do, but it is kind of out of my hands. I am at a music college and often find that whenever I do a recording done by other students, they always want to take a line out of the pickup, even though I don't think It will lead to good results and try to discourage them. I figure that the DPA will have some bleed from other instruments and and the guy recording it will use lots of the amp/amp sound, which won't be good. There will be 2 ambient mics, but we aren't using headphones for some reason. Does anyone else have trouble getting engineers who usually record electric to not DI double bass?? any advice?

 

[bkbirge]

Does anyone else have trouble getting engineers who usually record electric to not DI double bass?? any advice?

Hire another engineer is the only real-world advice in that situation. If that's not your call then you suck it up. Otherwise...

If you don't like headphones and/or DI's, don't use 'em. Will you get bleed? You bet your ass! However the room itself can be considered as another instrument so bleed can be good. Your job is to give the best performance you possibly can and the engineer's job is to capture that. There's compromises usually made when trying to achieve both goals but there's no reason to treat an acoustic jazz one-room session the same way as a metal all-overdub session. Tell your engineer and the engineer's instructor to look up Rudy Geller. I may be biased as I HATE DI'd upright (usually) so take that with a grain of salt.

And here's how I'd handle the session as an engineer... I'd go listen to you guys first, get an idea of the group and sound dynamic. Then judge whether the room we'll be recording in is acoustically good for this. I'd give you at least a couple different recording scenarios along with my recommendations tailored to your style and your goals based on my experience but ultimately you would decide. I'd ask for your favorite recordings and critically listen to them before the session. I'd make sure we are on the same wavelength as to goals for the session, before I set up a single mic. And depending on the room and your goals/comfort level, that might be all I'd set up.

With what you've described though I'd probably use a stereo pair, a spot on the bass down low, one spot on the drums up high to get the sizzle and the shuffle, and maybe a 'solo' mic for any vocalists or saxes. Then just move everything around, using mostly the stereo pair and working the bleed until it all sounds good coming out of the speakers. This would be judged while everyone is playing together, not individually. Then I'd make some good coffee.

 

[Tom Baldwin]

Hi
In the end, I've spoken to the guy, he's pretty set on recording with just my DPA mic and micing Pickup and DIing amp. This isn't really what I want to do, but it is kind of out of my hands. I am at a music college and often find that whenever I do a recording done by other students, they always want to take a line out of the pickup, even though I don't think It will lead to good results and try to discourage them. I figure that the DPA will have some bleed from other instruments and and the guy recording it will use lots of the amp/amp sound, which won't be good. There will be 2 ambient mics, but we aren't using headphones for some reason. Does anyone else have trouble getting engineers who usually record electric to not DI double bass?? any advice?

Here is the key: "the guy" is not an engineer. He is an engineering student. He is still learning about engineering, and he for darn sure doesn't have a better idea of how you want the bass to sound than you do. This should be your call, not his. My thought would be if he insists on using the DI, you should be at the mixing session. You can always get rid of it then. Who's working for whom here, anyway?

 

[larry]

Does anyone else have trouble getting engineers who usually record electric to not DI double bass?? any advice?

I've been there. You could take off your pickup and play without an amp.

Then again, depending on what pickup you're using, sometimes a DI is not the end of the world provided it's blended in with a mic.

I never thought I'd ever use a DI in a recording. Then I bought a Markbass LMII. The DI signal out of that thing can sound pretty usable. Just a tiny bit added to the mic can add some presence and you'd never really know it was DI'd.

Blasphemy, I know. I'm just sayin'...

 

[rkybtmn]

Which DPA mic do you have?
Thanks.

 

[olalo]

The trick is to use a main stereo pair for the band - but position yourself so that there is a good amount of bass in the main pair. Then you only need a tiny bit of your spot mic if any. If you want the bass to appear in the middle in the stereo image - obviously you'll set up in the middle.

There will be bleed in the bass mic. Using a little bit for presence is fine. If you need a lot of the bass mic, it's going to make it tough to get a good mix.

+1 in that...I recorded a trio in College with stereo technics and it doesn't get any better than that if you have the mics well positioned...

If the drummer is too loud you can try to add a mic to the bass and to the other pieces as well as mic'ing the bass drum...

 

[bloodyjack]

I've heard the VP88 is a good mic; I have not used it. Perhaps it is more forgiving than the Beyer M/S combo I use.

Can you post a link to the video? I'd like to hear it.

Unfortunatly youtube downsizes your audio to mono mp3 and puts it out of sync with the audio. As well as squashing the video but here is a clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybAXi0d9OSM
Remember this is a live show in a bar and the audio is recorded with 1 micraphone the Shure Vp88 here is a myspace page with better stereo mp3s of those same recordings.
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