Refusing to play at places where smoking is allowed

[jmattbassplaya]

Ok. You have asthma. I get that.

The OP never said anything other than the fact that he sings a lot and hates smoke. I've worked in smoky clubs before and carried a large fan on the road to alleviate that problem. I asked the OP the question, not you Spade. Truth is I never enjoyed 4 hours onstage in those environments even when I was a smoker.

When it comes down to it we all have to weigh risk/reward for a lot of what goes into being working musicians.

This is actual QFT material here. You have a choice to play in places that allow smoking. Don't like it, then don't play there. Can't find a band willing to bend to your rules, well then you don't get to play at all. I'm not a smoker and even I get this.

 

[spade2you]

Ok. You have asthma. I get that.

The OP never said anything other than the fact that he sings a lot and hates smoke. I've worked in smoky clubs before and carried a large fan on the road to alleviate that problem. I asked the OP the question, not you Spade. Truth is I never enjoyed 4 hours onstage in those environments even when I was a smoker.

When it comes down to it we all have to weigh risk/reward for a lot of what goes into being working musicians.

Had asthma and would like to keep it that way.

However, my understanding of airflow was based on understanding hospital ventilation systems for a class 100 clean room. Needless to say, "use a fan" wouldn't cut the mustard for that test question.

Like everything else, OSHA tends to win. I have no problem if musicians want to smoke, but saying that all should be exposed to it is a bit unfair.

 

[nortonrider]

If the smokers want a win, they'll have to earn it.

I don't smoke but I don't like anyone pushing their ideals
down my throat either.
just wondering....... did I win?

 

[spade2you]

I don't smoke but I don't like anyone pushing their ideals
down my throat either.
just wondering....... did I win?

Well, most musicians think they're all winners. Like Publishers Clearinghouse, you might have already won.

To be honest, to get where I am required handling of fairly toxic chemicals over the years. It was never possible to 100% eliminate the risks, but those sissy OSHA boys set up practice guidelines to minimize my exposure. All I can say is that it worked.

 

[JehuJava]

Wow, amazing! This is gonna get absurd...

You've been here all along, no need to "inform you".

I never said inform me. In fact I said:

And if you're going to take cheap shots you should have the common decency, as well as the honor, to mention in the OT thread that your over here belittling the opinion of those folks.

See that end part? "…those folks." Not me, those folks.

You quoted a definition of "confined space", specifically OSHA's definition, which is by no means the only definition and totally irrelevant to his discussion.

I did and to be funny. Clearly you're not one for jokes. And it was NOT relevant to the discussion at all, until YOU brought it up by saying:

F#@% the old man's personal liberties, he's smoking in a car with his kid on board, exposing him to second hand smoke in a confined space, and probably doing it elsewhere, too.

To which I replied:

While I agree about him smoking in the car with the kid, a confined space as defined by 29CFR146 is a space with limited means of egress, not designed for continuous human occupancy, and large enough to perform labor or work. A car fails to meet two of the requirements and thus is not a confined space.

::

To which you replied:

I care not about your OSHA definition. We are not talking about workplace safety. But lets compare a car to OSHA's definition.

OSHA Paraphrased Quote:

1) Has adequate size and configuration
for employee entry; 2) Has limited means
for access or egress; and 3) Is not designed for continuous
employee occupancy.
Examples of confined spaces could be underground
vaults in the telecommunications industry, aeronautical
fuel tanks, sewers, silos and, yes, even caves or
coal mines.


A car is much smaller than a silo or a cave with less air in it. When the car is moving, the kid is confined to it. It has a relatively small amount of air in the first place, and there is limited exchange of inside/outside air unless it is a convertible. So the kid is getting second, third and fourth hand smoke. It is the worst place in the world to smoke in front of your kids.

The rationalization I see in this thread is typical of addiction. "Hey kid, I bought you this gear, so deal with my smoking and its permanent effects on your health." Screw that.

To which I replied:

I was joking man...hence the ::

Followed by:

And I said I agreed with you on smoking in the car.

The fact that a car is smaller than a silo or a cave has nothing to do with a confined space. And for the record the amount of air by volume has nothing to do with confined spaces either. It's the quality of air…the percentage of O2 in relation to other gasses does (ie: 20% O2 and 80% N2 and other trite gasses). There will always be something in a space unless it a vacuum. Air is generic and means nothing. Breathing air? Toxic air? Your car most likely falls within 19.5-23.5% O2. The exchange of outside air to inside air has nothing to do with confined spaces unless you're ventilating the space because of an atmospheric problem. And a car IS designed for continuous human occupancy. In fact they are more comfortable than many offices found throughout America with all sorts of creature comforts, such as ergonomic seating and A/C. Being confined to a space is not the same as being in a confined space. Being confined to a jail cell is not the same as being in a confined space as it is designed for continuous human occupancy.

And in reference to your comment about the definition of a confined space not being the only definition, combining words generally produces a sum greater than the two parts. Much like Dead Beat Dad does not mean a dad that is not alive and beat up or tired. Combining the word confined and the word space implies more than the two words alone. Google confined space (which it looks like you did). You don't see a definition that says a space that confines something. No, you see the OSHA definition. This is the publicly accepted definition. Don't give me a ration of crap because you meant to say enclosed space but actually said confined space and then couldn't joke about it.

The reference about the kid walking was not attributed to you, but was indeed in that thread. It's not a cheap shot to quote somebody, if they say it, they should own it.

Really?

There's another smoking thread in the Off topic section. There are people in that thread (who have also chimed in here) who would defend that Fwit parent's rights to do just that. One even (half) jokingly challenged my description of a car as an "enclosed space", citing OSHA's definition.

"One even (half) jokingly challenged my description of a car as an "enclosed space", citing OSHA's definition." One of what? One of those "people in that thread (who have also chimed in here) who would defend that Fwit parent's rights to do just that." Why would I not assume you just lumped me into that group? I'm clearly owning my OSHA joke comment that's gone way beyond reason at this point. Owning one's statement is "Hey did you say this?" "Yes, I did." What you're doing is talking down about the people in that thread behind their backs not giving them a chance to "own it."

I'm not trying to derail or troll this thread, but that earlier comment you made about the "other" thread really pissed me off. Especially after I agreed with multiple points you made in the "other" thread.

 

[spade2you]

Gigslut's comments suggest might suggest someone who works professionally in some sort of risk management field. Call it a hunch.

 

[bassfran]

Had asthma and would like to keep it that way.

However, my understanding of airflow was based on understanding hospital ventilation systems for a class 100 clean room. Needless to say, "use a fan" wouldn't cut the mustard for that test question.

Like everything else, OSHA tends to win. I have no problem if musicians want to smoke, but saying that all should be exposed to it is a bit unfair.

Glad you beat it- I had a drummer once who had suffered from it since childhood and it was certainly no picnic for him.

I don't think that 'clean room standards' are really applicable to this discussion and I never said anything about smoker's rights, pro/con or otherwise.

Remember; we're ALL bass players here.
Same team, my internet 'friend', same team.

 

[bolophonic]

This did get absurd.

 

[ChrisB2]

Wow. Somebody put waaaaay too much time into THAT post...

 

[spade2you]

Glad you beat it- I had a drummer once who had suffered from it since childhood and it was certainly no picnic for him.

I don't think that 'clean room standards' are really applicable to this discussion and I never said anything about smoker's rights, pro/con or otherwise.

Remember; we're ALL bass players here.
Same team, my internet 'friend', same team.

It wasn't so much a matter of me beating it, but the smokers dying or being forced to quit due to health reasons.

That being said, there's a double whammy going on here. Many of us are dealing with less exposure amidst places dwindling smoking establishments, which more or less means that it's a lot thicker than it might be. I remember going to a dive bar across state lines right after we banned smoking and it was extremely thick and unbearable, even as drunk as we were.

Kidding and extreme measures aside, there aren't many effective ways to ward off smoke if that were our primary objective. A fan is just going to circulate the smoke around, kinda like when we used to mash food around the plate when we were kids. Removal of particulate would be the goal, so you'd need a filter. The most effective method would be standing next to a laminar flow hood found in your average IV room. Other than that, we're not really creating an effective solution for the problem.

 

[Mysterion]

Consider how different the conversation might be if the phrase "serial carcinogenic farting" was substituted for "smoking."

 

[Session1969]

I'd say, "we're going to keep looking".

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

Spade, you seem fine with people telling other people what to do, so how would you like it if one of the things in your life were outlawed because some people don't agree with it? What if they outlawed your favourite food because it casues cancer, because LOTS of stuff causes cancer? Are you still going to support that ban? It is safer for everybody, right?

If you let one group of people's rights get squashed, whose next? Because it certainly won't stop with smokers, they are already attempting to outlaw junk food, obesity is a FAR larger epidemic than smoking. I would march right to parliament hill for french fries! People have the right to freedom, whether you like their lifestyle or not.

 

[bolophonic]

Spade, you seem fine with people telling other people what to do, so how would you like it if one of the things in your life were outlawed because some people don't agree with it? What if they outlawed your favourite food because it casues cancer, because LOTS of stuff causes cancer? Are you still going to support that ban? It is safer for everybody, right?

If you let one group of people's rights get squashed, whose next? Because it certainly won't stop with smokers, they are already attempting to outlaw junk food, obesity is a FAR larger epidemic than smoking. I would march right to parliament hill for french fries! People have the right to freedom, whether you like their lifestyle or not.

Eating fast food doesn't make someone else fat, for starters. Smoke at home, where nobody will tread on your right to smoke.

 

[spade2you]

Spade, you seem fine with people telling other people what to do, so how would you like it if one of the things in your life were outlawed because some people don't agree with it? What if they outlawed your favourite food because it casues cancer, because LOTS of stuff causes cancer? Are you still going to support that ban? It is safer for everybody, right?

If you let one group of people's rights get squashed, whose next? Because it certainly won't stop with smokers, they are already attempting to outlaw junk food, obesity is a FAR larger epidemic than smoking. I would march right to parliament hill for french fries! People have the right to freedom, whether you like their lifestyle or not.

...and you seem to be a smoker looking for justification and excuses.

My favorite food doesn't affect you. Oh, I can feel the arguments coming in full blast, but there's absolutely zero way you can argue that my favorite food impacts you in any way, shape, or form.

In imaginary land, if my favorite food caused health hazards to other people, I would without a doubt give it up, absolutely no questions asked. And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

Smokers and freedom. I chuckle at this. Tobacco made much more sense when the average person didn't live much past 50 years of age.

 

[nortonrider]

Smokers and freedom. I chuckle at this. Tobacco made much more sense when the average person didn't live much past 50 years of age.

I don't understand this statement at all.



As for the Freedom, that's exactly what it is.
The freedom for the business owner to run their business any way they want.

own a bar? OK
a smoking bar? OK
a non-smoking bar? OK
a bar banning fat people? OK
a ladies only bar? OK

If patrons have a problem going into a smoking establishment, THEN DON'T GO IN A SMOKING ESTABLISHMENT!

It's when people start imposing their personal views on others that the problems start. Remember prohibition?

 

[spade2you]

I don't understand this statement at all.

How is smoking an unalienable right, a heritage, a disability, a necessity, etc? Smokers act as if they're fighting for something as righteous as religious freedom, but it's not. That's not political, that's just common sense. Only smokers see it otherwise.

 

[bolophonic]

I don't understand this statement at all.

As for the Freedom, that's exactly what it is.
The freedom for the business owner to run their business any way they want.

own a bar? OK
a smoking bar? OK
a non-smoking bar? OK
a bar banning fat people? OK
a ladies only bar? OK

If patrons have a problem going into a smoking establishment, THEN DON'T GO IN A SMOKING ESTABLISHMENT!

It's when people start imposing their personal views on others that the problems start. Remember prohibition?

I understand what you are saying here. I can see why you are mad. This raises a question for me: on the prohibition tip -- what would stop smokers from forming their own private club houses in a speakeasy fashion? I am sure it could be done.

 

[nortonrider]

How is smoking an unalienable right, a heritage, a disability, a necessity, etc? :

I don't think that anyone ever said that it was any of those things.

The same questions could be asked of Alcohol,
but.... it (like tobacco) is still legal to consume.

 

[nortonrider]

I don't like rap music,
If the band I audition for plays it, Is it really my place to tell them not to?

I don't like going into a bar and hearing rap music being played.
Should we pass a law banning it?