Return to quoting peak wattages?

[JimmyM]

This'll probably ruffle some feathers too, but a lot of styles favored by younger players are strong on distorted textures and short on actually listening to the things that signal driver failure. More than I can count on fingers and toes I've heard at jams and shows, sharp hard cracking sounds on some notes of the type that's saying that either a driver has taken a major hit on the motor, or that someone's cresting way beyond mild clipping.

But the player seems to pay it little mind until "technical difficulties" stop the act ; }

Hey, the truth hurts, and that is the truth. I have seen quite a few posts like, "So I was doing a gig, and my 500w amp and my 210 weren't enough, so I turned up the gain on my Bass Big Muff, and all of a sudden, no sound."

 

[RickenBoogie]

Exactly.

 

[BassmanPaul]

My take on this is that many players seem to think that a bass amp, especially a combo, means that they can turn the bass to maximum boost, the volume(s) to full and play away to their hearts content and the amp will be able to handle it all day long. I've read in posts words to the effect of "you would expect that the speaker they put into a combo should be able to take what the amp gives out". When the speaker or amp can't take what is being asked of them they die. Knowing the peak availability of power will do nothing to change that. Only education will fix the problem.

Paul

 

[bassjigga]

When I first started playing, amp makers would give you the RMS rating and the peak rating of their amps. Maybe it didn't stop people from blowing their speakers, but it did inform newbies that there is a ton of power past the clean rating.

But people balked at the peak rating being quoted because it was often used to make amps sound like they were more powerful than they really were, so eventually the manufacturers dropped it in favor of quoting only RMS, and very few quote peak these days.

Cut to now, where distorted tones are a lot more acceptable, 1000w amps can be had for less than $300, and cabs are getting smaller and smaller. Blown speakers are at epidemic proportions with those rigs. I think a major reason is because newbies don't understand the whole RMS/peak thing. Just today, I saw someone on here say, "My amp puts out 200w, the speaker is rated for 175w, and I thought it was close enough to crank all the way up." Of course, that 200w RMS amp can put out over 400w peak and the 175w rating for the cab is its absolute maximum before the voice coil melts (that's a whole other rant), but how are they supposed to know that if they have no experience with amps and the makers don't inform them?

Therefore, I think the least they could do is educate the consumers a little more than they have been, and one thing that would help a lot is if manufacturers started quoting both RMS and peak wattages again, and explain in the manuals the difference.

Of course, until manufacturers start quoting REAL power handling specs for speakers and not these BS specs that tell only when the voice coil melts, it's still going to happen, but at least newbies would have half a chance to keep from blowing their stuff if they know that turning their amps up all the way can easily result in double or more the RMS wattage. I've brought this up before, and a couple people rejected it, but I don't see what it can hurt as long as they quote both RMS and peak. It would certainly keep some people from blowing their speakers, which in this day and age, should never ever happen.

What say you, the TB cogniscenti?

I didn't read all the pages of posts, but agree with the OP. Maybe they should just print both. However, I have found, regardless of which one they do in fact print, seldom are they very honest. For example, my Glockenklang BAC top is rated at 400 watts RMS and is every bit as loud as many of the 700+ watt heads I've played through (of course I understand loudness is not purely attributed to watts).

In any case I've always found it astonishing that so many people on the forum talk about putting 1500+ watt heads into cabs rated at half of that. My only assumption was that most of those companies were lying about the true power so it works. My 2 cabs together can handle 900 watts (2x10 at 400 and 2x12 at 500) and my amp feeds them about 400 RMS. The cabs were NOT happy with the Heart-Rock pumping 750 RMS into them. I'd need 2 4x10s for that.

Anyway my 2 cents.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

I have seen quite a few posts like, "So I was doing a gig, and my 500w amp and my 210 weren't enough, so I turned up the gain on my Bass Big Muff, and all of a sudden, no sound."

Or, as Greenboy mentioned, "Yesterday when we were practicing I noticed one of the speakers isn't making any sound..."

And he probably noticed that only because he was noodling around before the band started!

 

[Stumbo]

....they can turn the bass to maximum boost, the volume(s) to full and play away to their hearts content and the amp will be able to handle it all day long.

Seems like they're mimicking the guitar players.

 

[KramerBassFan]

I just have a few things to add to this...
1. VERY few amplifier companies ACTUALLY put the REAL power rating on their amps...
Often times, it will be rounded up. Sometimes to the hundred of watts....
2. These companies are in business to make MONEY. Not the nicest product around.
What do they care if we blow up all our amps and cabs? They're okay with that- then we have to buy new ones.
3. If people out there, (in General) actually understood ohms, then this would not be quit the problem that it is, in my opinion...

Thats my input.
Thanks.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

No, it's not all about ohms. It's about pushing the equipment beyond reasonable loudness.

 

[RickenBoogie]

Yeah, matching the correct load is one thing, pushing 1000 watts through a 200 watt speaker is quite another. Still, it's all very avoidable.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

It would not be at all out of the ordinary for a cab to mechanically handle five times as much power with low-E tuning as it could with low-B tuning.

 

[Mark Reccord]

Maybe among bass players do you see loudspeaker driver damage from overexcursion predominate over thermal damage. After all, we play bass, and many of us boost the hell out of the low end and don't use any high-pass filtering.

In semi-pro and pro audio, I think the mix seems to tilt more toward thermal (overpowering). Burned and melted voice coils, misaligned or partially detached coil formers due to softened adhesives, etc.

IMHO, amp power should be stated in continuous average (also known by the misnomer "RMS power") using reasonably rigorous methods such as the FTC Amplifier Rule. (EIA is okay but not as rigorous.) There are some other international power spec standards by IEC and possibly some other groups, but I'm not really familiar with them. Amp "peak" or "music" power specs aren't really well defined (but often well puffed up), so comparing them is really like comparing apples and dogs.

I don't have hard stats to back this up, but in my 15 or so years in pro audio, the torn surround is the single most common type of damage I've encountered in cone drivers, fairly distantly followed by the types of damage you describe above. I think it's safe to say that overexcursion is a major issue. In compression drivers, the issues are 99.5% thermal, for certain.

 

[rbonner]

I caught the HINT by Tom Bowlus. I mentioned this a couple weeks ago in another thread Tom, what needs to happen is a few of the Techno Heads need to get together and actually WRITE a method of testing that allows TOOB and SS amplifiers to equally be compared.

Then say your testing staff puts the gear through an exact testing ritual.

The sad thing here is everybody likes to think RMS is this great measurement, it is not it is a calculated number .707 times PEAK. It is the heating factor of AC power compared to DC. Meaning .707 Volts of DC has the same heating capability as 1 Volt of AC.

It truly has no meaning in Audio amplification. But people here call it CLEAN POWER.

Clean power is the rating the amplifier is given in "watts peak" with a frequency response say "20Hz to 20KHz" for example at a certain distortion limit say "<.05%"

That is a real rating. See the difference between that and 300 Watts RMS which actually means nothing as it is a calculated number at the BEST FREQUENCY and BEST POWER OUTPUT with no distortion spec?

As I continue here, the amp power should be compared at a certain temperature rise over a certain time period. Most BIG PA amps are rated over 2 hours a typical engagement; with certain crests factors. This is not easy to measure stuff. I think computer simulations and automated test rig is in order.

You wanna see how this works? AMPEG SVT-4PRO 1600 watts peak. A measured number, in the amps ratings. 1200 Watts RMS a calculated number.

1600 times .707 = 1131.2 Watts. OH lookie here somebody padded a spec. Shame on them.

BOB

 

[georgestrings]

Bottom line, drivers blow when you don't use enough of them for the volume you're playing at. No rocket science there.

That's how I see it...



- georgestrings

 

[butchblack]

Personally, I thought it was common sense that a tiny 300w combo couldn't put out the wall of sound an 810 cab can, but apparently it isn't.

Just remember, no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public (P.T. Barnum, probably misquoted)

Add to the equation active basses, preamps, and effects and it can be very easy to blow a speaker. To misquote the ancient Greeks Know thy equipment and how to properly use it. If it starts to fart, back off immediately.

 

[allexcosta]

I see it differently. Lots of stuff have changed. Today's players don't know how to set the gain stage of an amp, and now most basses are active, with a lot more gain and lower frequencies than traditional passive Fender basses. Also, there's the whole "loudness war" that the younger players are subject to. In clubs, movie theaters, everywhere... People today are used to hear loud sound with gobs of sub frequencies (60hz and below, down to 25hz) and their ears just try to reproduce that. All combined with miniaturization and there you have it... Also, there's something very strange (to me) about gigs in the US. At least in my home country there's no such a thing of bass without PA support. First time I saw it was here in the US.

 

[JimmyM]

I never knew the word "fart" was from Greek origin, Butch

Obviously that's a joke, but your post is all truth!

 

[beans-on-toast]

You would think that Clair Bros knew what they were doing, but a few years ago I did a gig in Bethlehem PA with a Clair Bros crew that maybe were the biggest bunch of clueless idiots who thought they were geniuses that I ever saw. They were ordering us around and treating us all like crap, even Bowzer. And they had a horrible ground noise coming through every piece of gear up on that stage, and refused to acknowledge that maybe they did something wrong. Only gig I ever did with one of their crews but if that's the kind of crews they send out on a regular basis, then they've fallen way downhill.

You hear stories like this and your jaw just drops. Sometimes audio crews forget why they're there and have the attitude that they are the talent. Problem is, if you push back too hard, there are plenty of ways that they can muck you about.


David

 

[JimmyM]

Ya, and then to top it off, I missed the turn for the turnpike on the way home and drove us smack dab into the worst part of Philly at 12 am. Man, you should have seen it! Extremely narrow streets, and here I am driving an RV with a trailer on it, and people are yelling at us and shouting obscenities at us. Fortunately we didn't get attacked, but we were really scared!

I have to take one thing back, though. After thinking about it, that may not have been my only experience with a Clair Bros. crew. I did a week gig at Harrah's in St. Louis a few years back, and if memory serves me, that was a much smaller Clair Bros. crew, and they were absolutely top notch all the way around and very nice folks. So maybe I just got a rogue crew in Bethlehem. Still, quite surprising for a crew that went out under the Clair Bros. name.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

IPeople today are used to hear loud sound with gobs of sub frequencies (60hz and below, down to 25hz) and their ears just try to reproduce that.

Excellent point. Compact Discs allow plenty of bass, especially for drums. On an LP, the bass was generally more subdued, because heavy bass would cause the stylus to jump the groove.

So even recorded music is heavy in the bass. Not just live shows with a dozen subwoofers below the stage.

 

[Red Planet]

Dont think it can come down to just wattage at all (prolly allready said).

Xmax is part but isnt the dampening factor of the amp inportant too?

Example I have a 2x10 and a 1x15 cab both 8 ohms rated at 400 watts each. Running a QSC PLX2 1804 into those cabs at supposed 600 watts per side at 8 ohms. Ok running this setup yileds thunder low end at any volume leve I want with no issues what so ever.

Now into those same cabs I plug a Marbass LMIII into them and the amp supposedly puts out 500 watts at 4 ohms. If I crank it too high I get some cone flap out of the 10's.

Why?

I do not get the flap running 1200 watts with boncrushing volume but I get it at 500 watts with not near as much loudness.