• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Richest bassist?

I can't argue with that, Jauqo. I suppose it's a push as far as strictly bass playing, and I could even give the slight edge to Jamerson in that department because he was first, but I still give the slight edge to McCartney overall just because more people knew who he was and he affected culture as a personality of the times in a bigger way. Plus he wrote songs and sang and fronted his band. I guess it's all whether you're narrowcasting to just us bassists or taking the entire culture as a whole into it.
 
I can't argue with that, Jauqo. I suppose it's a push as far as strictly bass playing, and I could even give the slight edge to Jamerson in that department because he was first, but I still give the slight edge to McCartney overall just because more people knew who he was and he affected culture as a personality of the times in a bigger way. Plus he wrote songs and sang and fronted his band. I guess it's all whether you're narrowcasting to just us bassists or taking the entire culture as a whole into it.


I think the big difference is that Jamerson was pretty much invisible and not even spoken about, therefore to some degree none existent.
 
That is not true at all. So many bass players were really digging the bass lines from Jamerson and seriously being influenced by him and not even knowing who the bass player was(and believe me they wanted to know)and for many it was very refreshing to finally read who the bass player was , thanks mainly to Marvin Gaye who credited Jamerson and Babbit on his recording "Whats going on".

Its great to think that but again I was there and I don't recall anybody wondering who was behind all that great Motown stuff. Maybe you were also playing bass in the 60's and your experience was different.

And like I said before, Paul was definitely more of an influence on rock players. Most all R&B, Funk, and some Disco (mainly what I'm into from that era) was all Jamerson influenced. I'm sure a lot of kids went out and got instruments after the Beatles hit, but I think there were a lot of people who already knew they were wanting to be musicians spinning the Motown records playing in that style. I think the soul/funk/R&B recordings from the 60's on are enough evidence to show that Jamerson was the fundamental influence in that style.

I won't deny that Paul had a huge influence/inspiration factor to him, but most of the music that I dig from that era was Jamerson influenced. I'd be interested to see at any given time what split of music is rock/everything else. I'm personally not a big rock fan so

I play mostly Motown, Stax and soul from the 60's so my bias about how great Jamerson was should not be in question. The guy was amazing. But again, I was playing during the 60's and my experience was that I never heard the name, in fact, I never heard anyone even talk about the bass playing at Motown 'till the book came out. Did Jamerson deserve more? you bet he did. The guy was amazing. But as its my opinion that much of the glory, heck most of it was heaped on Jamerson long after he was gone.
 
Its great to think that but again I was there and I don't recall anybody wondering who was behind all that great Motown stuff.

Maybe you didn't but thats not to say that some where in another part of the city or state you were at that the question didn't come up.

Paul M. was many 1000's of miles away and he even wondered who the bassist was :)
 
Straight up: 90% of the population did not know there was such a thing as a bass player until Paul McCartney came along. Once the Beatles happened, teenage boys started asking for guitars and basses for Christmas. the word "influential" doesn't just mean Dr. Licks sold you his book and the mainstream music student finally figured out who James Jamerson is. Influential could also mean that an entire generation of baby boomers who play bass started doing it because of one guy. It could refer to a huge boom of instrument manufacturers who cropped up directly as a result of the Beatles' popularity. They changed the national pastime from baseball to being in a band overnight. And every bass player who was big in the late 60's and early 70s- including geniuses from Florida and Philadelphia, initially picked it up because of McCartney. In U. S. popular culture, there simply was no such thing as bass until February, 1964. Bass meant upright, high school band, it was not cool.

No disrespect, but you just sound like you don't know the history of our instrument very well.
90%? I doubt that. I was into Motown and Big Band long before the Beatles came into play. And the Beatles had zero influence on me as a musician and music lover! While I respect the Beatles acheivements, I dug and respected Elvis and Tom Jones way more!!
 
Maybe you didn't but thats not to say that some where in another part of the city or state you were at that the question didn't come up.

Paul M. was many 1000's of miles away and he even wondered who the bassist was :)
Exactly! Most British artists were influenced by the Blues and Motown! And dig it....not every 'culture' was into the Beatles!
 
I play mostly Motown, Stax and soul from the 60's so my bias about how great Jamerson was should not be in question. The guy was amazing. But again, I was playing during the 60's and my experience was that I never heard the name, in fact, I never heard anyone even talk about the bass playing at Motown 'till the book came out.
We may have not known the player (or cared who played) but the bass was a prominent part of Motown music and I was damn sure into the 'sound' of the bass! It is what drew me into playing bass. Not Paul McCartney!!
 
"Long before"? How long? According to your profile you were 5 when the Beatles came into play.
And..........I come from a family of musicians and was listening to and loving music during this time! I definitely recall seeing them on the Ed Sullivan show and they did nothing for me. Being 5 doesn't mean I was unaware! My family was playing jazz and popular music since the early 50's! I was taking piano lessons at 5!

So yeah, I grew up in the 60's & 70's and The Beatles had NO influence on me as a musician! The only Beatles songs I like these days are Jazz interpretations of a few. Can't stand the originals!
 
Well at one point Paul M. did acknowledge that he wondered who the bassist was that was on all those Motown songs that he would listen to so attentively.

McCartney has also said his bass playing was influenced by Brian Wilson's bass playing with the Beach Boys. Does this mean that Brian Wilson was "behind" Macca's style and therefore his influence as well?

Because that is what you are implying when you continually return to the argument that somehow McCartney ought to be considered "second" in overall influence to Jamerson because he has acknowledged that he admired his work and "took" from it.

Anyway, with regard to that I think McCartney always stated that he was inspired to play more active or busy lines because he heard Jamerson doing that. That doesn't mean he was lifting his playing style...

This argument can go on and on indefinitely and part of it comes down to personal taste / preference so on that level it useless to continue. In any event the '60s were a very open time in the world of music and everyone influenced everyone else.

I admire Jamerson because I am a bass player and his classic "unsung hero" story is one pretty much all bass players can relate to. Plus he was a flat out great player. He, and Bob Babbitt, whose story isn't nearly as tragic as Jamerson's, provided the groove to countless Motown classics. They should, of course, be applauded and appreciated for this because millions of people throughout the world enjoyed their work long before anyone knew who they were, or how these recordings ever came to be (IE. the reliance of session musicians).

And lets be honest here, most of the non-bass playing world still has no idea about them. We know who they were and what they did because we are bass players. To make a bit of a point here - let's talk drummers for a second. Off the top of anyone's head, who can name the drummer that played on, I don't know - I Wish it Would Rain, by The Temptations without "googling"? I'd bet more drummers would know before the general public or even bass players and other music geeks (and even then still not that many would - after all it is drummers I'm talking about here...:D).

But - and I am not writing this with any sort of disrespect at all - whereas Motown was a hit making factory that churned at classic after classic, they really specialized only in R&B and Soul. These genres were their bread and butter and they'd have been foolish to deviate from the songwriting approach developed by among others, Holland / Dozier / Holland.

McCartney, during his most influential years with the Beatles never really played any songs that matched those genres, (though they did cover some early Tamla / Motown tunes) even though he acknowledges that he adapted certain elements to his style. So he was able to "take' from them, like everyone who has ever "taken" from anyone else.

Motown's bassists never really played songs in the several different styles the Beatles did so whatever they took from him, which may have been very little, was less apparent.

In the end, I'm sticking with McCartney being more influential simply because he was called upon to come up with consistently interesting bass lines in a far wider range of musical styles (to say nothing of Lennon's knack for writing songs which contain multiple time signatures within them) than pretty much every other bassist of his era. I also think that more musicians and bass players at that time attempted to emulate his playing style than anyone else's simply because more people were inspired to be the "next Beatles" than the "next Temptations" or whomever else were residents of Hitsville, USA.

This is not to dispute Motown's and Jamerson's influence since both were obviously huge. I love all that stuff. But I think both took a back seat to The Beatles and McCartney...

Whatever the case it is in the end it is all good.

And McCartney is still the richest bass player in the world...
 
DW, this is cool, you're providing a different perspective and you're right, it's so much about differences in culture, region and family. It's a unique thing that you came up in a family of musicians, you have an experience that gives you a whole different view. I know some people don't like it when threads veer off their original topic, but I happen to think we're having a really interesting conversation and, as long as it stays respectful, we may even be in danger of learning something from each other.

Kind of curious, DW, just in regards to the time when you first started playing the bass, what was the impetus? It probably seemed like the most natural thing in the world if your whole family played, but what was it that made you pick up the bass?

To me, the thing is that it's easy to forget that both Motown and the Beatles were pop music when they were happening. They studied in schools now, but they were disposable pop product at the time. They were the same thing as Frankie Avalon and Fabian to a lot of teenagers, but the difference was that with the Beatles you saw guys playing instruments. That turned a switch for a lot of kids and suddenly it was popular to play guitar. Later on, the Jackson 5 certainly had a similar effect (even though they were miming). The reason I keep harping on teenagers is that, to me, that's what it's all about: 13 and 14 year old kids asking for musical instruments for Christmas instead of a new bike. That's what created the societal change. To mention players like Jack Cassidy or Jack Bruce is to ignore why you even know their names, because there was a huge explosion in beat groups kicked off 4 years earlier. There's no question that there was an explosion of instrument manufacturers in the mid 60's and many people credit that to the post- Beatles interest of mainstream teenagers wanting to start bands. In many cases, those less expensive guitars from Italy and Germany (and Danelectro, Harmony, Kay, etc. in the states) provided access to young musicians in a very important way.

Also, the Motown influence on the Beatles is a bit overstated, in my opinion. Motown, as a label, got off to a bit of a sputtering start, with a few notable exceptions. The Beatles were in Hamburg, doing 6 sets a night when they incorporated Money and Please Mr. Postman into their sets as contemporary singles, and of course later they recorded Smokey's "You Really Got A Hold On Me", but their set lists were much more dependent on Little Richard, Elvis, Chuck Berry, Gene Vincent and Carl Perkins. The Isley Bros. were on Motown, but not when they recorded "Twist & Shout"- and they didn't write it and the Isley's version was a cover of the Topnotes version.

In the mid 60's, when Motown and Stax had a lot more hits, the Beatles were huge fans and specifically jealous of the bass sound on those records, but don't get it all twisted up that they were playing a lot of Motown covers when they started. Motown was a much more successful label in the mid 60's and later. In the early 60's , they were one of many independent labels that had a few hits. Google Hip-O Records complete Motown singles (or buy them like I did) and you'll see that there were more misses than hits for the first few years of the label.

Sorry so long, I think about this stuff a lot.
 
Because that is what you are implying when you continually return to the argument that somehow McCartney ought to be considered "second" in overall influence to Jamerson because he has acknowledged that he admired his work and "took" from it.

I'm not implying that at all, only stating a very logical observation and I'm not attempting to place McCartney behind Jamerson even though Jamerson was years before McCartney and that is factual.

Again if the Beatles hadn't been seen on TV, the impact on the predominately young white impressionable viewers would not have been what it turned out to be.
 
I'm not implying that at all, only stating a very logical observation and I'm not attempting to place McCartney behind Jamerson even though Jamerson was years before McCartney and that is factual.

Again if the Beatles hadn't been seen on TV, the impact on the predominately young white impressionable viewers would not have been what it turned out to be.

What does ethnicity have to do with anything? Young impressionable white people also bought millions of Supremes records too, since they were the second biggest act in the 60's, at least in in terms of record sales. Were the millions of records they and all the other Motown artists sold bought exclusively by black people?

And I don't think you can't just say if the Beatles weren't seen on TV they wouldn't have been as influential because A) that is a completely unprovable position because, B) they were on TV. We can't change that logical fact. Also it kind of devalues their music a bit. TV helped "make" the Beatles, but the music is what counts.

Anyway, truth be told, Ed Sullivan for one, probably had just as many Motown acts on his shoe, (I mean show) as anyone else, so it wasn't just they who were helped by TV.

Jamerson was great - McCartney was great. "Credit" aside isn't the point really that decades later the work they, and others did still inspires people?

Again. It's all good...
 

Latest posts