Rickenfakers on a Chinese website

[A-Step-Towards]

America already lost a ton of Jobs overseas, why keep supporting there economy? keep jobs here , pay enough so a person can afford a decent wage , etc.

Could a ric be made in another country for 1000$ and be the same quality? yeah. Is that person making a living wage? not really.

 

[senorblues]

If you want to save American jobs, you are probably a little late. By now its more likely that soon we won't be able to buy the goods so cheaply from our Asian friends.
I have bought lots of gear on ebay and other online sources and my experience has been that most domestic suppliers are slow to ship, overpriced, even like screws are extra, and HALF the time the product is not as described, defective, or just wrong, while I have never been disappointed with anything I have ordered from China.

 

[bassplayer8953]

If you want to save American jobs, you are probably a little late. By now its more likely that soon we won't be able to buy the goods so cheaply from our Asian friends.

^^^This is a rationalization for buying Asian crap, IMO...

As long as there are American factories still producing Fenders, Gibsons, and Ric's (+ others) it's not too late.

Make a statement...vote with your wallet. MIA is still available (for musicians, anyway) for those who still care about buying a quality product.

 

[Rob Martinez]

Calling products made in Asia "Asian crap" is just an American-centric bunch of nonsense. Like it or not, we are in a global economy, and it is not going to change. Yeah, in the 50s "Made in the USA" meant the best and "Made in Japan" meant not so good, but those days are over. NOTHING is completely made in the USA these days, so you can pretend you support MIA while turning your back on Asian made products, but it just isn't true. The USA imports TONS of products from abroad, and everyone buys them.

 

[Buster Brown]

RIC has less than 100 employees, and they're not unionized. But if anyone thinks $20.00 an hour is a fortune, volountarily take a pay cut. Who's first? Stealing is stealing. There just isn't any way to justify it. Anyone who feels differently, tell ya what, give me all of the music you've spent your life writing and recording. I'll get it out there, make a tone of money, and then...pay you nothing. By the way...other than a 4002 or 4005, no post '73 Rick bass is worth anywhere near $2700.00.

This is where I stand on it as well. If "Joe Blow" is making widgets here in the states and they cost $8.25 per and suddenly China is building a cheap copy and selling it for $3.25 and puts "Joe Blow" out of work then "Joe Blow" and his fellow line workers are pissed and, unfortunately, out of work.

But according to some here, that's OK. They are getting their widgets cheap. To a certain extent, I agree. However, this isn't one of them. China DID NOT develop the product. They DID NOT MARKET the product. They did no R&D. They faced NO TRIALS on the market. They had NO GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT. They do not worry about STANDARDS AND PRACTICES.

They merely stole the intellectual property of "Joe Blow's" company, copied it with dirt cheap labor and sell it back to us, putting US out of work and reaping the profits. Americans don't tolerate that behavior from the rest of the world, but we tolerate it from China - because that lame ass excuse of "China doesn't recognize copyright and trademark laws".

How convenient....

 

[Flyingfrets]

Okay, here's some persepective...

I'm an American. A Unionized American. Working for the state government where I live.

After 11 years on the job, I just barely make $20 an hour. There's a misconception (largely propogated by our own Governor) that we're independently wealthy, and we use the union to bilk the taxpayers.

By the time we're done paying the same taxes everyone else pays, we still have union dues ($76) every 2 weeks, pension contribution ($130 every payday...which BTW, the State does NOT match, but we can't opt out or waive...oh yeah, this goes into a fund that the State has repeatedly pilfered over the last 17 years to the extent that there's still a $32 billion deficit for retirees payments...and they REFUSE to pay back. The folks they stole it from are left with that responsibility).

Health insurance & benefits used to be the only advantage to these jobs. It was the only way to sweeten the pot & entice people to take jobs that nobody wanted. Those benefits have been slashed to where part-timers can't afford them at all, and even us full-timers really can't, but we have no choice if we have families. So another $700 - $900 off the top (depending on your options).

Overtime doesn't exist anymore, so there's no chance of offsetting the expenses our employer has imposed over the last 4 years. We're expected to pay private sector rates for all benefits on government wages. When all is said & done, I take home less than half of what I gross. Without exageration, I know people on welfare who make more than I do. They don't have to get up every morning and deal with the grind of an A-hole boss, put up with the abuse from the public, all benifits supplied & paid by the state.

Don't kid yourself...your government doesn't give a sh_t about "the hard-working Americans." They coddle the lazy & the addicts who squeeze out a new puppy every 2 years to avoid having to get off the dole. And they're doing it OUR dime.

So, where's the incentive? Pride...which comes before the fall, doesn't it? But I'll tell ya, I don't feel too much better off than my guitar-building Chinese counter-part.

So, I play music to unwind, have a little fun and supplement my income. Yeah, except for my Rogue VB100, the rest of my gear is MIA. And bought before I had a family and "real" bills & responsibilities. Couldn't afford 'em now.

If I want a work-a-day stand-in for my more valuable instruments, I have plenty of options in Epihone & Squier (and I've done so on a few occassions).

Not so with Ric. I have to work with the options available to me. I have to live with my choices. I can deal with that.

 

[bassplayer8953]

NOTHING is completely made in the USA these days,

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The USA imports TONS of products from abroad, and everyone buys them.

true...however, on many consumer items, there is no choice. With music instruments there is a choice, and you can make that choice...when you choose to buy MIA...or not.

 

[Flyingfrets]

This is where I stand on it as well. If "Joe Blow" is making widgets here in the states and they cost $8.25 per and suddenly China is building a cheap copy and selling it for $3.25 and puts "Joe Blow" out of work then "Joe Blow" and his fellow line workers are pissed and, unfortunately, out of work.

But according to some here, that's OK. They are getting their widgets cheap. To a certain extent, I agree. However, this isn't one of them. China DID NOT develop the product. They DID NOT MARKET the product. They did no R&D. They faced NO TRIALS on the market. They had NO GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT. They do not worry about STANDARDS AND PRACTICES.

They merely stole the intellectual property of "Joe Blow's" company, copied it with dirt cheap labor and sell it back to us, putting US out of work and reaping the profits. Americans don't tolerate that behavior from the rest of the world, but we tolerate it from China - because that lame ass excuse of "China doesn't recognize copyright and trademark laws".

How convenient....

In theory, I agree. But the reality is, the Chinese stuff isn't going away.

And it will be bought by those who'd prefer to buy an officially sanctioned Ric, but can't afford it. As I said earlier, Ric doesn't leave that option open.

Yeah, I get the exclusivity angle...MIA, Only the best, etc. But we ALL know, a Squier isn't a MIA Fender, an Epiphone isn't a Gibson. There are enough distinguishing features that most of us can tell them apart at a glance.

Would "official" Asian Rics cheapen or devalue the American made stuff? Considering the prices Gibson commands for a Les Paul vs. what Epiphone gets for one of theirs, I seriously doubt it. At the end of the day, it's ALL going in the same pot because Gibson owns Epiphone.

But Ric has their business model which doesn't provide for that option. So what happens? You just had to know someone would step into the breach. And people will buy them, regardless of what's theoretically or actually right/wrong.

As I said, the Chinese aren't going away...and neither are their $3.25 widgets.

 

[Buster Brown]

Of course the Chinese "stuff" isn't going away. Once Pandora's box was opened, it couldn't be closed again. I don't really even know who to blame.....us or them? Who knows and, at this point, who cares? Until the "Powers that be" decide that we are losing too many jobs to China, nothing will ever change.

Here's what I DO know. For the most part, the "copies" or "Pirate copies", if you will, that China is "building" aren't bad. As I stated in my original post, I was FLOORED at the Gibson rip-off that I saw. Unbelievable. However, here's the rub...

.....I wonder how the guys on the line at Gibson feel about these copies? Or the guys at Rickenbacker? Are they flattered that China cares so much about their quality that they try (like the dickens) to make PERFECT copies? Or are they pissed off that their jobs could (at some point) be lost to a guy in Shanghai making .35 cents an hour?

I have played Rickenbacker since 1970. Never had a copy. I have played Fenders since 1983. Same deal. I have to admit, however, that I DO own a MIJ P Bass that is second to none in quality. But it is a FENDER, not a copy.

 

[Flyingfrets]

I have played Rickenbacker since 1970. Never had a copy.

Same here, well, since '77 anyway.

I have played Fenders since 1983. Same deal. I have to admit, however, that I DO own a MIJ P Bass that is second to none in quality. But it is a FENDER, not a copy.

The paradox there is that if you'd bought that MIJ P bass in the early '80s, it would've been made by Fujigen or Matsumoko...one of the company's that had ripped Fender off for 2 decades. That is until Fender entered into an agreement to have those things made FOR Fender.

And the Japanese "lawsuit" era guitars were nothing to laugh at regarding attention to detail either. I had an Ibanez SG clone. I also had a late 70's Gibson/Norlin SG. Take a wild guess which one cost half the other, yet had a better build quality and played like butter?

These days, Ibanez wouldn't be caught dead building a clone of somebody else's guitars. They've established a helluva reputation and a willing market of their own.

Things evolve. Like you, I don't know where this is all going or where it will end. But we both know what's happening in the meantime...

 

[Mr. Foxen]

Rickenbacker haven't evolved, that is most of their problem. Gibson keep trying to innovate (first solid body electric as we know it, first pointy guitars, robot guitar, Moog electrics in a bass) but somehow they don't do so well with it, they also have totally dropped the ball with quality (at least the stuff that makes it to the UK), and weirdly won't evolve a scarf joint so the headstocks don't fall off. Rickenbacker staunchly refuse to evolve, and shout and cry a lot at anyone who does it for them. That is entirely their own fault.

Edit: missed the point I was trying to make: Fender made really good calls throughout, letting people play copies, knowing they'll grow into a real Fender when they have some money. Plus simple mass production has always been what Fender designs are about. Playing a Rick is horrible for a newbie, which is probably why they'd see no benefit from cheapies.

 

[Flyingfrets]

Rickenbacker haven't evolved, that is most of their problem.

That's what I was getting at. Fender & Gibson have understood that unless they brought their own lower-cost Asian products to market, someone else would.

If I wanted a lower-cost alternative to my Strat or LP, would I buy a Squier or Epiphone? Sure. Would I buy a Chinese "pirate" copy of an LP? Nope. I have other choices.

Playing a Rick is horrible for a newbie, which is probably why they'd see no benefit from cheapies.

? I don't quite understand that. I was a "newb" when I bought my Ric (3 years total experience on guitar, maybe 2 on bass) and if felt "right" instantly.

IDK, maybe I was just lucky...then again, I am kinda strange. Could be either one...

 

[Buster Brown]

So...if I get the analogy correct....

Rickenbacker is getting what it deserves; because rather than bow to the pressure of becoming a "bass- for-all seasons" type of company, it maintains the same basic standards that it has held since the inception of the company? So it is all Rickenbackers fault!!! That explains it!!

Wow!

I need to let my Wife know that the Rolex submariner she bought for me to mark our 35th wedding anniversary could have been purchased for $25 at the local flea market!!

After all, Rolex has been building watches the exact same way (without changes) since the early 40s......

THAT explains why copies are so readily available!!!!

 

[Mr. Foxen]

You have a Rolex just for telling time?

 

[kcole4001]

Since this has already gone somewhat political, here's a little perspective for those rationalizing buying cheap imported goods, knock offs or original:

If you won't support your own country's economy, who will?
Answer: no one!

Sure it's not always possible, but don't blame the government, big corporations, 'the man' or whatever.
It is YOUR responsibilty to support and maintain your community and country.
And if you think citizenship is a right not a priveledge ask a veteran what he or she thinks about that!

It's called civic responsibility.

Buy whatever you can that's made in your country, whichever country that may be, and while you're at it, buy local produce to keep your regional farmers in business.
It may (or may not!) cost a little more, but in the long run we'll all benefit.

 

[Flyingfrets]

So...if I get the analogy correct....

Rickenbacker is getting what it deserves; because rather than bow to the pressure of becoming a "bass- for-all seasons" type of company, it maintains the same basic standards that it has held since the inception of the company? So it is all Rickenbackers fault!!! That explains it!!

Wow!

Not exactly my words, but I understand where you're coming from.

Just saying that if I budget $350-$400 for a "slammer," Ric could be getting that money with a budget brand of their own. They choose not to offer one. That's cool.

But if I'm hell-bent on having a Ric-style bass, guess where that money is likely to go?

Indeed, you get what you pay for. You pay $25 for a "Rolex," can you really be surprised that the finish flakes a year later? You knew what you were buying.

By the same token, I don't believe anyone buying the Chinese "Rics" thinks they're getting a bona fide 4001/4003/360, etc.

You know you're at least likely to replace the electronics. From what I've seen of the build quality, they appear to make decent "project" guitars/basses. I'm not about to "hot rod" a 40 year old bass, but that's just me.

Not saying it's Ric's fault. It's their choice. Even if every single man, woman & child in America refused to buy this Asian stuff, they'd still be churning them out. Because the rest of the world is buying them.

Rockinbetter 4001/4003 copies are strictly a "no-no" here (FWIW, most of the Chinese copies I've seen bear a striking resemblance to the Rockinbetter stuff, which is ostensibly a Tokai brand, but they won't say where they actually get them from). Perfectly legal everywhere else though.

Even still, you're right. It's NOT a gray area. They're not kosher, at least in our neck of the woods. But ultimately, we all have to make our own decisions and live with the consequences.

Just out of curiosity, can anyone here honestly say they've NEVER knowingly done something they knew they shouldn't have?

No fair splitting hairs or justifying such decisions. Right is right & wrong is wrong, no?

 

[bassplayer8953]

And the Japanese "lawsuit" era guitars were nothing to laugh at regarding attention to detail either. I had an Ibanez SG clone. I also had a late 70's Gibson/Norlin SG. Take a wild guess which one cost half the other, yet had a better build quality and played like butter?

These days, Ibanez wouldn't be caught dead building a clone of somebody else's guitars. They've established a helluva reputation and a willing market of their own.

Gotta love this:

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...coming from a company that established itself making copies of Fender, Ric, Gibson, etc. etc. etc......

...if the Chinese pretenders are as good as some claim, they should build & design models of their own.

Then maybe one day, we'd see the same warning from the Flang-Sum-Dung guitar company, about their sacred designs...

 

[Buster Brown]

Since this has already gone somewhat political, here's a little perspective for those rationalizing buying cheap imported goods, knock offs or original:

If you won't support your own country's economy, who will?
Answer: no one!

Sure it's not always possible, but don't blame the government, big corporations, 'the man' or whatever.
It is YOUR responsibilty to support and maintain your community and country.
And if you think citizenship is a right not a priveledge ask a veteran what he or she thinks about that!

It's called civic responsibility.

Buy whatever you can that's made in your country, whichever country that may be, and while you're at it, buy local produce to keep your regional farmers in business.
It may (or may not!) cost a little more, but in the long run we'll all benefit.

Good points. Look, it's nearly impossible to have a discussion about these issues without them becoming somewhat "political" in the sense that these things are all generally interrelated. The trick is to have a civil discussion while respecting everyone's right to express their collective views. Thus far, this discussion has been both civil AND educational!

I respect the idea that "cheap" copies are/will be available from foreign countries. I absolutely DO NOT agree with the theft of intellectual property. I say that if China is capable (and they are) of building high quality copies, why not invest in your OWN companies and proudly build YOUR OWN product?

Where I come from, that is the way to do business. Not by thievery.

 

[Buster Brown]

Not exactly my words, but I understand where you're coming from.

Just saying that if I budget $350-$400 for a "slammer," Ric could be getting that money with a budget brand of their own. They choose not to offer one. That's cool.

But if I'm hell-bent on having a Ric-style bass, guess where that money is likely to go?

Indeed, you get what you pay for. You pay $25 for a "Rolex," can you really be surprised that the finish flakes a year later? You knew what you were buying.

By the same token, I don't believe anyone buying the Chinese "Rics" thinks they're getting a bona fide 4001/4003/360, etc.

You know you're at least likely to replace the electronics. From what I've seen of the build quality, they appear to make decent "project" guitars/basses. I'm not about to "hot rod" a 40 year old bass, but that's just me.

Not saying it's Ric's fault. It's their choice. Even if every single man, woman & child in America refused to buy this Asian stuff, they'd still be churning them out. Because the rest of the world is buying them.

Rockinbetter 4001/4003 copies are strictly a "no-no" here (FWIW, most of the Chinese copies I've seen bear a striking resemblance to the Rockinbetter stuff, which is ostensibly a Tokai brand, but they won't say where they actually get them from). Perfectly legal everywhere else though.

Even still, you're right. It's NOT a gray area. They're not kosher, at least in our neck of the woods. But ultimately, we all have to make our own decisions and live with the consequences.

Just out of curiosity, can anyone here honestly say they've NEVER knowingly done something they knew they shouldn't have?

No fair splitting hairs or justifying such decisions. Right is right & wrong is wrong, no?

Great points!

Example: True Story. My Brother is the CEO of a company back East and recently he was approached by his HR head about a gentleman that they hired (some 18 months earlier) as a IT Professional. Apparently, this guy is an excellent employee but he was hiding a "slight" problem...

Human Resources, doing a routine check of employees credentials, checked his diploma out and lo and behold, it was from a reputable school, but his diploma was a fake (from China). They approached the employee with the information and he came "clean". He purchased the diploma from a diploma mill in China and he had no degree whatsoever. He did it because he was unable to find work anywhere. The diploma (including transcripts) was such a good fake, that it was impossible to tell the difference without actually contacting the school.

He was NOT terminated but is being required to get his degree (legally). According to my Brother, he is far too valuable to let go. Again, the "copies and phonies" strike again. It could have cost this guy everything.

I understand WHY he did it, but I don't AGREE with his reasoning.

 

[Flyingfrets]

Good points. Look, it's nearly impossible to have a discussion about these issues without them becoming somewhat "political" in the sense that these things are all generally interrelated. The trick is to have a civil discussion while respecting everyone's right to express their collective views. Thus far, this discussion has been both civil AND educational!

I respect the idea that "cheap" copies are/will be available from foreign countries. I absolutely DO NOT agree with the theft of intellectual property. I say that if China is capable (and they are) of building high quality copies, why not invest in your OWN companies and proudly build YOUR OWN product?

Where I come from, that is the way to do business. Not by thievery.

Excellent points...all.

But I have to ask, even if the Chinese established their own brands and started marketing their own models, at what point do they risk incurring the wrath of someone who says they've infringed on their design?

To my eye, any single cut guitar could arguably said to be based on the LP design. Redardless of the headstock design. Yeah, I can tell an Epiphone LP from a Gibson based on the "maxi-pad" headstock, but it's not intellectual theft because Gibson now owns Epiphone. Even though, to a layman, the guitars are identical otherwise.

A lot of the SX stuff is CLEARLY based on Fender designs, but they're okay too.

Roughly 5 years ago, I saw a bass on ebay that construction-wise looked more like an Alembic (neck-thru, multiple laminates of maple & walnut, with body wings glued on). Yes, the neck thru/ glued wings is also a Ric hallmark, but this instrument had "tree of life" inlays on the fingerboard, active electronics, no PG and a unique headstock design.

It was clearly NOT a Ric & never claimed to be. Didn't claim to be a copy/replica or clone either. Had it's own brand-name (don't remember it anymore since I only saw it in passing while surfing the 'net late one night)). Listing was pulled anyway. Why? The body was shaped like a 4001/4003.

In western music, there are exactly 7 notes (plus sharps, flats & octaves for each). So...are all songs that use those notes rip-offs of one another?

Yes, the basses we're talking about here are absolutely intended to be copies of an established brand/model.

So are the SX Ursa basses. C'mon, I can't be the only one who sees that even though SX is a brand of their own, imported & distributed by Rondo, they're meant to be cheap copies of P/J basses, can I?

So at what point would the Chinese NOT be stepping on anyone's intellectual toes?