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RNC "Really Nice Compressor" is nice!

greiswig

greiswig

Aug 4, 2006
58
1
#1
I'm not a regular contributor here, and I'm no star as a bassist. But I do production and recording work, and have a good ear. I wanted to post something that might help some of you out who have been hesitant to try the FMRAudio RNC or RNLA out on bass guitar.

I had a gig this weekend where I was playing bass (Kinal 5-string, bartolinis through a Demeter preamp). I kind of like a small amount of compression on bass when I record, just enough to take the transients off a bit but not get in the way of the overall sound. I thought I'd try to recreate that live, and plugged in my RNC to the effects loop of the Demeter.

I put it in supernice mode, and had this odd "tail" of noise that kept coming in unless I turned the release up to 1 second...which in SN mode is an eternity! I attributed this to the much-rumored issue when using this compressor on bass, and just gigged without it. I called FMR yesterday to discuss it with him and to find out if the RNLA might be better in this regard.

Mark spent a lot of time with me asking questions about the noise, and expressing his concerns that although he's heard all the rumors about the RNC being virtually unusable with bass, he knows touring bass players who use it.

Long story short, I tried again with the RNC. I couldn't recreate the issue, although I did find an issue with the power strip that I had been using...I've got dirty ground connections in it or something. My theory is that this is what was causing what I'd heard before. I can definitely get the RNC to distort in normal mode with slow release times, and it doesn't sound anything like the other noise I'd heard. And in supernice mode, the RNC is working well as a good, transparent compressor for me.
 
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#2
Cool, glad you're digging it. The problems bassists have had with it weren't noise issues, but distortion issues. The distortion is a result of the very long frequencies of bass notes being chopped off by the very fast attack and release times the RNC is capable of. I wrote a negative review of the RNC on my page, but it's important to note that most of my complaint was based on how much setup I had to do to avoid that clipping. The RNC is perfectly capable of cleanly handling bass, if you're willing to take some time to dial it in, and don't change your instruments or playing styles all that much. And if that is your situation, it is very quiet and has no treble rolloff, which is a great quality.
 
#3
bongomania said:
Cool, glad you're digging it. The problems bassists have had with it weren't noise issues, but distortion issues. The distortion is a result of the very long frequencies of bass notes being chopped off by the very fast attack and release times the RNC is capable of. I wrote a negative review of the RNC on my page, but it's important to note that most of my complaint was based on how much setup I had to do to avoid that clipping. The RNC is perfectly capable of cleanly handling bass, if you're willing to take some time to dial it in, and don't change your instruments or playing styles all that much. And if that is your situation, it is very quiet and has no treble rolloff, which is a great quality.
Click to expand...


Thanks, bongomania. I guess that one point I'd really like to stress is that distortion does seem pretty easy to create in normal mode, but the supernice mode seemed very forgiving to me, and more transparent besides. Particularly in that mode, it was not difficult at all to get rid of the distortion.
 
#4
Not sure about the noise issue, but I'm able to use my RNC on bass using regular mode. I also like a small amount of gain reduction to tame the peaks.

Contrary to some experiences, I've found that mine does lose a little bit of sheen on the top end when engaged. Yesterday I installed a socket and replaced the original OP275 opamp with a new high performance LM4562 and it brought the highs back to life. It's a subtle difference, but I prefer the slightly more transparent sound of the LM4562.
 
#6
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]:

Why does the RNC distort my bass guitar?

At the risk of sounding too esoteric and philosophical, there are many universal laws that are, many times, inconvenient (like, say, gravity). Well, there's a mutual (and universal) exclusivity between low frequency fidelity and fast compressor release times. Stated another way: the faster a compressor's release time, the more distorted the lower frequencies will be. "Okay, okay!", you say, "I know that! But why don't I have similar problems with my other compressors?" Simply put, the RNC's normal mode release times are shorter than many compressors (some of the fastest that we've seen). This means that the RNC will induce low frequency distortion more frequently than your other compressors. "Why didn't you make the RNC so it wouldn't distort my bass notes?" Because then we'd limit (no pun intended) your creative choices for other sound sources where a really fast release time would sound really gonzo...like on kick or snare drums. Try compressing a snare drum track with the RNC set for really fast attack and release times. You'll here drum resonances that you've never heard before that can be creatively used to add spice to your mixes!
"How do I avoid or reduce the low frequency distortion?" This one's easy: increase the release time until the distortion goes away. (Doing my best Groucho Marx impression: "Does it distort when you do that? Well don't do that!")​
 
#8
Tedintheshed said:
(from FMR) "How do I avoid or reduce the low frequency distortion?" This one's easy: increase the release time until the distortion goes away. (Doing my best Groucho Marx impression: "Does it distort when you do that? Well don't do that!")
Click to expand...

Honestly, I think this is a glib statement from them, one which I did not find to be "the whole truth". I put this in the category of manufacturers telling their customers that the problem they experience is (a) imaginary or (b) the customer's fault, when it may not necessarily be. Yes, it is possible to set the FMR up so that it does not distort; no, it is not just a simple matter of turning the release knob to a slower setting, IME at least. But I'm aware that many people are plenty happy with their RNC, and I certainly don't intend to argue with that. :) And I do still intend to try the RNLA when I get a chance.
 
#11
bongomania said:
Honestly, I think this is a glib statement from them, one which I did not find to be "the whole truth".
Click to expand...

I pretty much agree with this statement, and I actually think it does a disservice to their own product: if they had suggested trying Supernice mode, I think that would "solve" the problem for most users. In regular mode, turning the release time up to nearly 2 seconds might make it not distort, but that kind of release time really isn't useable.

*My* main point in this was that there may be an inherent susceptibility of the RNC to supply voltage issues, or that it merely brings previous noise issues to the fore by the very nature of compression. If that happens, given the rumor mill that keeps stating "The RNC can't be used on bass without distorting," most users will just give up. I almost did, but I'm very pleased with the results after having kept at it a bit.
 
#12
bongomania said:
All of them. I spent about six hours total, over three days, testing it out at all different settings, with different input signals and different playing styles.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what to say..... that hasn't been my experience at all. What exactly were you hearing, and what settings did it take to make it go away?

I've only found a small range of unusable settings on the RNC with bass. When I set the attack below 6.0 ms there is definitely a buzzy distortion artifact, but that goes away with a slower attack time. That short an attack time isn't useful for me anyway because it turns the note's attack to mush. I tend to use between 20 - 60 ms, which captures the definition of the initial attack and keeps an element of dynamic expression in my playing.
 
#13
12bass said:
What exactly were you hearing, and what settings did it take to make it go away?
Click to expand...

What I was hearing was clipping, the same buzzy distortion artifact that you heard at (in your case) only a minority of settings. For whatever reason, I got that same sound at (IIRC) at least half the settings I tried.

Our different experiences may have been due to differences between our respective rigs; but it's also the case that I "torture test" all the compressors I test out, meaning I give them not only "proper" input (like steady, even, clean bass playing) but also extremely variable and hard-to-manage input like wild slapping and terribly irregular plucking. Now, you might reasonably say "Of course you got distortion, doing all that"; but I do the exact same sort of things with every compressor I test, and most of them handle it a lot better. I figure many prospective users will be buying a compressor specifically to reign in a difficult signal, so I bias my testing toward "worst-case" usage. Any compressor where I don't mention artifacts or transient problems, passed a rigorous trial.

Anyway, I stand by my experiences and descriptions completely, but I can also easily see where someone else could get different results with more controlled technique, and possibly with a different set of equipment.

Oh, and what settings it took to make the distortion go away varied considerably depending on what input I fed it. :)
 
#14
I picked one of these up a few days ago, on demo. There are a lot of things to like about it. It's very responsive and flexible and also very transparent... I had a few 'wow' moments at the general subtlety and cleanliness of the sound, when I was initially playing around with it on some tracks. Gorgeous on acoustic guitar and vocals. I think if all I wanted this for was studio work, it would be a no-brainer, especially at the price ($225 CDN).

I've only spent about 3 hours with it on bass, and so far I'm pretty torn. I haven't tried supernice mode yet, but I've been unable to find a basic 'set it and forget it' setting that would cover the different styles I'm playing with my band... in fairness, though, I might be trying to do too much with it, treating it as an effect more than just a dynamic control. At home in my practice room I was able to tweak in just about all the sounds I wanted (what fun!) but that's just not plausible in a live setting. Now if this thing was programmable, I'd be in heaven.

I did notice some of the fast attack/release distortion others have noted. It seemed to be just a subtle buzz on the attack, I didn't hear it on the release. Not hard to dial out by going more moderate with the attack and release. Even when present, I didn't find the distortion to be terribly noisy; you wouldn't want it on a recording, but in rehearsal it was noticeable only when I cranked the release to it's shortest time.

I would say that it's definitely power-supply sensitive... our rehearsal space has some quirky power issues and when we came back from a break, there was a ton of noise coming out if it, and I had to disconnect it ... we've had similar problems in there before with other equipment, probably due to electrical loads in another part of the building... but this compressor probably wants a power conditioner. (in fairness, my bass is also in dire need of some new shielding)

So far, I've been using the RNC direct from my active bass, and I find that the threshold setting is very sensitive... even with the bass cranked the threshold has to be dialed very near its' lowest setting, and it's very sensitive there to slight alterations in playing or even a bump of the thresh dial. I want to try it with a pre-amp'd signal from my bass, so I can set the thresh setting more in the middle of its' range and see if it's a little more comfortable and flexible there. I'd be interested to hear other's input on that issue.

This brings me to my only complaint, operationally, about the unit... the knobs are extremely sensitive and while not 'loose,' they're definitely not solid or snug feeling, and a gentle bump will knock them off setting. It would be much better if they had a tighter, more mechanical 'clicky' feel or, better yet, were lockable.

I'll have to play around more to see if I can find that 'set-and-forget' mode for live use, and maybe use a stomp compressor for effect... if I can find that (and I hope I do) I'll definitely be buying it. I'd be interested to hear what settings other users have settled on.
 
#15
Ballpein,

I'd really encourage you to try the Supernice mode. You may just find your 'set and forget' sweet spot, if you like really transparent.

Thanks for verifying my experience with power supply: nice to know I wasn't hearing things.
 
#16
Took the RNC out to a rehearsal tonight and I think I'm sold. Found some nice settings, both with and without 'supernice' (thanks greis). I found a really nice normal setting with a ratio around 4:1, attack between 30 and 40 ms and a release betwen .5 and 1 sec, threshold set for 4 or 5 dB of reduction at moderate playing intensity... this was my favourite overall sound. In supernice mode, you can set the attack and release a lot more extreme (attack 2 - 6 msec, release .3 - .5 sec) which seemed better for driving, quick - 1/8th note driven stuff (you can get a really nice percussive sounding pump with the right settings). I had been setting threshold for average 6-8dB of reduction before, but dialing it back for around 4dB average reduction really opened things up... seems the lower reduction leaves some headroom for more intense playing.

Smooth and Rich would be my adjectives for this thing. Super clean, very subtle, but I got a little extra smoothy-richness from it. Evens out my string-to-string tone, lets me hammer on the higher notes without the tinny/brassiness I'm used to hearing out of my bass on the higher strings. And squishy enough that I can hear just a little bit of my right hand, and what I really liked, I can hear the fretboard.... not sure if that makes sense, but seems like I'm hearing a subtle 'woody' sound, and am able to get a sound more akin to the acoustic tone of my bass, perhaps closer to my upright. It's maybe a bit counter-intuitive, but seems to me that compression actually lets you hear more dynamics.

...I might have become a compression junky. Bongo, who's your dealer?
 
#18
Well, I went ahead and ordered a RNLA, the brother to the RNC. I like it!!! The RNC was good, but a little finicky. With the RNLA, it is still possible to get a weird distortion on bass guitar, but it's harder. And it really sounds great! Give one a try.
 
#19
Okay...edit on that previous comment. I had only tested it at low volumes, and on trying it out at more normal volumes that distortion is there at similar settings to the RNC. Hmmm....too bad, because I really like the tone of this thing. Hey, BFunk, what settings are you using, and are you doing anything with a low B?

I'll talk to Mark and report back here.
 

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