RNDI vs. USB Interface

[erratick]

Understood.
I have a Scarlett Solo so the Mic Input and Instrument Input are separate.
Correct me if I'm wrong; but in other Scarlett interfaces where input connectors are combined, Phantom Power is either only enabled when in Mic Input mode or is only applied to the Mic Input contacts in the combo-jack.

Purpose built DI's run on Phantom (maybe not all?) they don't provide Phantom.

Phantom power has a hardware switch on the focusrite's I have. It isn't available on all xlr/combo ports, that depends on model. It provides phantom power to mics, pedals or DIs that need it.

Probably have to plugin the focusrite instead of using USB power only.

 

[rumblinbass]

If there is a roll off on the bass and "not defined highs", how are the scarlett's recording drums and vocals, guitar, etc?

The frequency response is more flat than your ears:

Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 measurements

that's for the cheap one.

The "air" button on the newer ones does change some high end response.

the focusrite scarletts are not DIs, they are audio interfaces. And they are high fidelity.

This thread is filled with science fiction.

Pretty sure everybody understands the difference between a DI and an interface.
I merely replied to the comment about running one DI into another DI.

I'm sure the Scarlett frequency response is flat but that does not mean the the high end is defined or the low end isn't punchy or present.
Frequency response is important but is not the only thing that influences how something sounds.

 

[rumblinbass]

Phantom power has a hardware switch on the focusrite's I have. It isn't available on all xlr/combo ports, that depends on model. It provides phantom power to mics, pedals or DIs that need it.

Probably have to plugin the focusrite instead of using USB power only.

On my Scarlett Solo Phantom is available on USB power.
My only point was that the RNDI will only operate with Phantom Power, therefore needs to be plugged into a Mic Pre.
The RNDI will not operate if plugged into another DI, or the Instrument Input (or mode) of the Scarlett Interface.

Also, I was pretty clear as to what a DI is in a previous post.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

The RNDI will be a significant upgrade on the Scarlett direct input. It's in a completely different league.

 

[Aloe]

If there is a roll off on the bass and "not defined highs", how are the scarlett's recording drums and vocals, guitar, etc?

with a mic perfectly. DI is not a mic preamp and when you switch the line/inst, your instrument will sound differently. DI is bright enough for a guitar, but if you ever tried a Telefunken DI, you'd notice, something's missing.

I don't have a Scarlett anymore, but own two Claretts. and I love the mic preamps with darker mics and air engaged. but not the inbuilt DI. I did record through it, but prefer external options.

and yes, 'air' together with 'inst' will likely hiss a lot. at least, it was my experience.

 

[silky smoove]

With all due respect Chris, this makes no sense and it's not the first time.

The OP asked if adding the RNDI would improve their signal path. In this case “improve” could be restated as “affect a meaningful change.” My point was and is that while the RNDI is a fine device that will affect some change, there are more effective and potent means of doing that than cascading one active DI into another. That’s not an opinion, it is verifiable and easily measurable fact. Why that’s put you on a crusade against me, or given you some axe to grind is beyond me. I have no interest in arguing about something that can easily be measured because someone feels some kinda way about it, and thus I’ll be adding you to my ignore list. Feel free to respond or to continue taking jabs at me, I simply won’t see them.

 

[King Harvest]

Better is subjective.
Only you can determine if you like the Scarlett or the RNDI better. They are different flavors. I encourage you to listen and make that determination yourself.

I don't think better is always subjective. If I go on a TV forum and ask which is better quality 480i or 1080p, are people going to say it's subjective?

 

[rumblinbass]

The OP asked if adding the RNDI would improve their signal path. In this case “improve” could be restated as “affect a meaningful change.” My point was and is that while the RNDI is a fine device that will affect some change, there are more effective and potent means of doing that than cascading one active DI into another. That’s not an opinion, it is verifiable and easily measurable fact. Why that’s put you on a crusade against me, or given you some axe to grind is beyond me. I have no interest in arguing about something that can easily be measured because someone feels some kinda way about it, and thus I’ll be adding you to my ignore list. Feel free to respond or to continue taking jabs at me, I simply won’t see them.

I would like to know how you cascade one DI into another?
Have you done that before? Which DI's?

 

[rumblinbass]

I don't think better is always subjective. If I go on a TV forum and ask which is better quality 480i or 1080p, are people going to say it's subjective?

Ok. Sure. But does everybody prefer 1080p over 480i?
When it comes to audio gear - some people prefer the clinical, low distortion sound from an op amp while others prefer the color and low-fi tone of a tube.
Better is not always subjective but IME, audio gear is very subjective. What are you listening for? When you are playing, what is going to help you feel confident about your tone?
When making a choice about the RNDI or the USB interface - what are you looking for? The RNDI compared to the Instrument Input of a USB interface will be very different. Only you can decide which is better.

 

[silky smoove]

I would like to know how you cascade one DI into another?
Have you done that before? Which DI's?

The second DI in question here is the front end of a Focusrite Scarlett where the 1/4" input and the XLR both feed the same preamplification and AD circuit. In that case you would run the XLR output from the first DI into the XLR input on the Scarlett. One could argue that this is a mic preamp and not a DI, but for the purposes of the OP's question it's an immaterial semantic difference. You're cascading one circuit into another.

As to your second question, yes I have run one DI into another. Specifically a cheap Hosa Sidekick passive DI into the XLR input of some LR Baggs unit that was provided by the guitarist on a Motown'y session a couple years ago. It was a method he swore by for getting that Motown guitar sound but he didn't have the technical understanding of what was happening. It was simply an intentional impedance loading of his guitar's passive and VERY low output pickups that resulted in some top end loss which worked well for the session. He could have easily achieved the same thing with a slight roll-off of his guitar's tone control, but since he was paying me to engineer and not to produce I just did what the client wanted. The end result was good so I never gave it much thought once the session was done. I still probably wouldn't do it that way on another session unless I was asked specifically.

 

[808P123]

Is anyone using an RNDI to record direct and do you think the quailty is much better than just using the built-in DI on an interface like the Focusrite Scarlett series. Thank you.

I have the RNDI and I can tell you it's been great. I use it live and to record, engineers love it. It's going to take however you sound and make it slightly bigger/deeper/focused. The Scartlet is pretty decent, it won't be an earth shattering difference but it will be better.

 

[MDBass]

Is anyone using an RNDI to record direct and do you think the quailty is much better than just using the built-in DI on an interface like the Focusrite Scarlett series. Thank you.

Yes, the quality is objectively better: anyone in the thread claiming there is no difference has likely never compared the two.

As another poster mentioned a lot of audio is a game of inches, and “much better” is fairly subjective.

The easiest way to decide for yourself if the difference is worth it to you personally is to plug the RNDI into the channel 1 input of your Scarlett, the thru output to your channel 2 input, and compare the recorded signals directly.

 

[rumblinbass]

The second DI in question here is the front end of a Focusrite Scarlett where the 1/4" input and the XLR both feed the same preamplification and AD circuit. In that case you would run the XLR output from the first DI into the XLR input on the Scarlett. One could argue that this is a mic preamp and not a DI, but for the purposes of the OP's question it's an immaterial semantic difference. You're cascading one circuit into another.

As to your second question, yes I have run one DI into another. Specifically a cheap Hosa Sidekick passive DI into the XLR input of some LR Baggs unit that was provided by the guitarist on a Motown'y session a couple years ago. It was a method he swore by for getting that Motown guitar sound but he didn't have the technical understanding of what was happening. It was simply an intentional impedance loading of his guitar's passive and VERY low output pickups that resulted in some top end loss which worked well for the session. He could have easily achieved the same thing with a slight roll-off of his guitar's tone control, but since he was paying me to engineer and not to produce I just did what the client wanted. The end result was good so I never gave it much thought once the session was done. I still probably wouldn't do it that way on another session unless I was asked specifically.

Ok. I'm not sure if I completely understand what you are saying, but...
I agree that the Mic Pre input and the Instrument Input on a Scarlett Series interface could feed the same preamplification but the front end of each input is different - one optimized for Microphones, the other for Instruments. However; when a circuit is added to the signal path, it is now a different signal path. Running a bass into a DI then into a Mic Pre would be different that just running that bass into an Instrument Input. Regardless of how similar the Mic Pre is to the Instrument input - the addition of the DI makes it a different signal path.

Specifically regarding the OP's question - the RNDI is completely different than the Scarlett interface circuitry and tone.

The example you described is quite interesting. As long as the guitarist got the sound he wanted, it doesn't matter.

 

[silky smoove]

Specifically regarding the OP's question - the RNDI is completely different than the Scarlett interface circuitry and tone.

"Completely different" is perhaps an overstatement and a simple null test would confirm just how different the resultant tone is given the addition of the RNDI. I don't own an RNDI or have one on-hand to test, but given the intended linear design of the device I would bet any sum of money that the resultant null data would be exceedingly low level.

 

[rumblinbass]

"Completely different" is perhaps an overstatement and a simple null test would confirm just how different the resultant tone is given the addition of the RNDI. I don't own an RNDI or have one on-hand to test, but given the intended linear design of the device I would bet any sum of money that the resultant null data would be exceedingly low level.

I think it is a safe assumption that the Scarlett Interface inputs are IC Op Amps - very clean, very low distortion.
The RNDI is a Class A discrete buffer driving a transformer and generates quite a bit of color. Completely different is not an overstatement.
The design goals were different.

 

[seamonkey]

It is a simple task to record a split track, one through the RDNI and one straight through the Scarlett. Make sure the levels match. Then everybody could hear the difference. A/B/X them. Analysis of the tracks would also show the differences. And there may be many software pre-amps/DI emulations that do essentially the same - and could be nulled with the RDNI. Could save some users lots of money if using a plugin gets them there.

 

[Bonafide]

It is a simple task to record a split track, one through the RDNI and one straight through the Scarlett. Make sure the levels match. Then everybody could hear the difference. A/B/X them. Analysis of the tracks would also show the differences. And there may be many software pre-amps/DI emulations that do essentially the same - and could be nulled with the RDNI. Could save some users lots of money if using a plugin gets them there.

I agree. Although there is a great deal of both qualitative and quantitative user evidence already. The initial recording is only going to be as optimal as the testers experience level and listening / monitoring environment. And the same goes for those who listen back. I see comments on tone from those using their phone as the source. I remember a time when MP3s were not permitted in pro audio forums for comparison as they were too compressed and vastly different than the source audio. Today, a great deal of audio we use for reference is far worse, and yet decisions are formed through it.

In my experience if anyone needs academic or pedantic proof that a piece of gear sounds good because they cannot trust or have not developed their listening skills, they need to consider a new occupation or keep listening. Specs are relevant for understanding the gears possible potential and internal build quality, but listening is more relevant. One unfortunate consequence or result of modern forum/google/rehash culture is that guesses or definitive answers are given without any direct first hand knowledge. Nobody needs to validate their experience and gear choices with a limited test to appease those who have not used the gear. Not to mention ‘resultanty low null’’ has zero value. Unless is nulls perfectly, there is no further discussion. Even a perfect null at -60 is not definitive.

As for matching it with plugins, it’s a cool experiment and I have done it in the past for certain things, but in the case of a class A discrete buffer, you do not get the source (nor it's massive real world uses). And to take it further, even if we could, through effort get a perfect match, it demonstrates that it's possible (to null), not that it's likely or easily repeatable or even that they sound or feel the same with any consistency.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

The Scarlett Hi-Z Instrument input and the RNDI are NOT the same thing.
The Scarlett Instrument input is most likely an op amp gain stage, not a DI. Very flat with no color.
The RNDI is a DI. A DI provides a high input impedance, reduces instrument level to Mic level, provides a low output impedance, and requires Phantom Power. It was also designed to provide color. It has an active discrete high input impedance buffer that drives a transformer and has copious amounts of low order harmonic distortion (you don't get that with op amps).

You should be able to hear the difference between the Scarlett Instrument input and the RNDI run into the Mic Pre. There is a big difference.

Oh, and for what it's worth - to me you don't get color from an EQ. EQ allows you manipulate frequency response. Color comes from what distortions are allowed and how they are created and used.

The Scarlett instrument input is by definition a DI. DI stands for Direct Injection, which just means connecting your instrument into the rest of the signal path, without using a speaker and mic. If you aren't using a mic, you are using DI.

DI is not the same as a DI Box. One is a method, the other is a physical object. A DI Box is a tool you can (but do not have to) use to DI an instrument. It is useful tool because it provides functions such as impedence matching, balancing, ground lifting, signal splitting, buffering, tonal modification, etc. But if you don''t require any of those functions, it is redundant and unnecessary.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

On my Scarlett Solo Phantom is available on USB power.
My only point was that the RNDI will only operate with Phantom Power, therefore needs to be plugged into a Mic Pre.
The RNDI will not operate if plugged into another DI, or the Instrument Input (or mode) of the Scarlett Interface.

Also, I was pretty clear as to what a DI is in a previous post.

You're confusing things. RNDI needs phantom power, but that is not why it "needs" to be plugged into a mic pre. It "needs" to be plugged into a mic pre because it outputs a balanced signal whose impedance, amplitude benefit from a mic preamp because the input on the pre has specifically been designed to accept these input signals.


There are ways to provide phantom power to the RNDI without using a mic pre.

 

[rumblinbass]

You're confusing things. RNDI needs phantom power, but that is not why it "needs" to be plugged into a mic pre. It "needs" to be plugged into a mic pre because it outputs a balanced signal whose impedance, amplitude benefit from a mic preamp because the input on the pre has specifically been designed to accept these input signals.


There are ways to provide phantom power to the RNDI without using a mic pre.

I really don't agree with much of what you said in either post.