JeezyMcNuggles
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"Rock" vs. "Pop" music classification
- Thread starter dougjwray
- Start date
As a rule of thumb, one goes TZU TZU TZU, the other DA DA DA, but you can't see the rig being played. Will further elaborate on request.
It's all jazz unless you're in a tux and following a conductor. Pop used to be what turned into soft rock (like James Taylor or Bread). Crooners as opposed to blues shouters. The rebellious, self taught, Marshall stack toting crowd would never be considered Pop. This is just a labeling system record company executives use to figure out who to strongarm in order to get their share of airplay and consequently a bigger cut.
This whole band/genre thing gets derailed when you encounter a group like The Guess Who. Burton Cummings belted out American Woman, played the flute on Follow Your Daughter Home and piano on Albert Flasher. Randy Bachman wrote Undun, No Sugar Tonight and (later on with BTO) Takin' Care Of Business. Good luck figuring out what box they belong in. This isn't even digging into the album cuts. They covered more ground than Rand McNally.
This whole band/genre thing gets derailed when you encounter a group like The Guess Who. Burton Cummings belted out American Woman, played the flute on Follow Your Daughter Home and piano on Albert Flasher. Randy Bachman wrote Undun, No Sugar Tonight and (later on with BTO) Takin' Care Of Business. Good luck figuring out what box they belong in. This isn't even digging into the album cuts. They covered more ground than Rand McNally.
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Yep, in the case of Rush, their opera magna 2112 itself is an overly clear anti-authority chant.
I disagree with your A-D criteria, because your criteria has nothing to do with the music other than A) Instruments. Your criteria is all about the politics of the group. Jazz, blues, bluegrass, classical are not defined by how the artist feels about certain things, it's the music. Why do people think that music can only be rock or punk if the artist believes in a certain criteria of politics or ethics?
Rock music is pop music, correct me if I am wrong but pop is short for popular, when the genres rock and roll and pop started being used they were one in the same, Elvis, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones were both rock and roll and at the same time pop, popular as in played on the radio and not more traditional roots music, even though they were influenced by roots music. Eventually rock and roll evolved, and people started shortening it to just "rock" and at the same time the music became less obviously influenced by roots music so people started distinguishing between for example Buddy Holy being rock and roll, and Deep Purple being rock. Similar thing happened with pop. Originally Elvis, the Beatles etc. were pop, but then the bubble gum pop artificially fabricated for pre-teen girls began taking over the airwaves and the term pop became entrenched with all the stigma that we now have for it.
The problem is that when we talk about genres we are trying to convey what something sounds like, not what the beliefs of the artists are. Your criteria is a bit subjective and you could argue one way or the other for certain artists, would Michael Jackson be rock or pop, would the Sex Pistols be rock or pop? I don't even know, but if you were trying to convey to someone what a band sounds like you would help them understand better by using terms that are more musical such as song structure, musical technique, etc. in their criteria rather than whether the guitarist met the drummer in high school.
Rock music is pop music, correct me if I am wrong but pop is short for popular, when the genres rock and roll and pop started being used they were one in the same, Elvis, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones were both rock and roll and at the same time pop, popular as in played on the radio and not more traditional roots music, even though they were influenced by roots music. Eventually rock and roll evolved, and people started shortening it to just "rock" and at the same time the music became less obviously influenced by roots music so people started distinguishing between for example Buddy Holy being rock and roll, and Deep Purple being rock. Similar thing happened with pop. Originally Elvis, the Beatles etc. were pop, but then the bubble gum pop artificially fabricated for pre-teen girls began taking over the airwaves and the term pop became entrenched with all the stigma that we now have for it.
The problem is that when we talk about genres we are trying to convey what something sounds like, not what the beliefs of the artists are. Your criteria is a bit subjective and you could argue one way or the other for certain artists, would Michael Jackson be rock or pop, would the Sex Pistols be rock or pop? I don't even know, but if you were trying to convey to someone what a band sounds like you would help them understand better by using terms that are more musical such as song structure, musical technique, etc. in their criteria rather than whether the guitarist met the drummer in high school.
The song contains. . . . .
Power chords = Rock
Major 7 chords = Pop
Power chords = Rock
Major 7 chords = Pop
This is JUST FOR FUN!
Please, no "It's all subjective and these threads are pointless" replies.
I was pondering how I, personally, tend to pigeonhole rock and pop music. It's a continuum, of course, and I'm also the last person who should be doing this, since I do believe in the "there are only two kinds of music: good and bad" bit.
But, JUST FOR FUN, I came up with these criteria. To be "rock" music, it has to contain 3 out of 4 of them:
A) Guitars and drums are present, and sometimes piano and/or saxophone. Roots (however distant) in the blues/country fusion which created rock 'n' roll. Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Bo Diddley, Fats Domino.
B) "Organic" construction-- the members need to have come together naturally (schoolmates (U2), or colleagues on the scene (Cream)) and not have been assembled by the music biz machine (Monkees).
C) A do-it-yourself ethic-- the band members write the material, the level of performance is "raw and untrained", and originality is a goal.
D) An anti-authority attitude, and usually some youthful angst and anger. "Music made by young people FOR young people." Parents are repulsed.
The Rolling Stones, Queen, the Clash, Black Sabbath, Radiohead, R.E.M., Foo Fighters, Bruce Springsteen and the Beach Boys obviously have A, B, C, and D (to give a few examples).
Steely Dan has a polished level of execution, but I'd say that they have all of the rest. I think the sarcasm of their lyrics gives them D.
Yes, King Crimson and Rush don't have D, there is very little of the blues/country roots thing, and their level of execution is polished, but they have the rest, including loud guitars and drums, and fierce originality. Rock music.
The Beatles have (had) A, B, C and D. If you think their early days lacked D, you didn't see them juxtaposed on TV and radio against someone like Robert Goulet in a tuxedo singing a Broadway tune. A stark contrast. Parents were horrified by the hair and by the "blaring" guitars and "pounding" drums. Where are Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme with their Cole Porter medley??
Elton John and Billy Joel? They could have been Tin Pan Alley writers, so to me they are on the brink of pop. But since they do write, and because they contain ever-so-slight vestiges of Little Richard and Elvis, they JUST make it into rock for me.
OK, maybe some of you will have FUN with this FUN little thread, which is intended to be FUN!(Hopefully, I won't be sorry...
I have never really pondered this before, but I thought your OP made good and thoughtful points, and was a fun read.
Since I'm getting rather long in the tooth, I remember when popular music radio stations were comfortable playing Bobby Vinton, Beatles, Elvis, Bing Crosby and Ramsey Lewis. Categorical sub-divisions, I think, came about when target audience marketing became a thing to make yet more money. I care about composition, that is, I'll be attracted to a clever or well done tune that's Bluegrass over a routine soul tune. I always read how musicians themselves when interviewed speak of their admiration for good music and good musicians, categories be damned. Jimi Hendrix spoke of his admiration for Clarence White, a country player and George Harrison had a thing for Hoagy Carmichael. Steve Howe was a fan of both Julian Bream and John Williams enough to attend their concerts. Cross genre, cross cultural influence and exposure is what makes all art richer. If you think categorically, you're playing to the marketers. As always, it's my opinion.
Thats because we have moved into a time where we have to find little inconsequential items for self identity.....many modern folks are obsessed with boxes and labels ....and if an artist does something, even if ever so slightly a paradigm shift, they have somehow stumbled onto unexplored originality.......if a guy passes gas in the vocal booth while tracking, that vocalist will immediately think he invented "Fart Core" ( and you have to add "-core" to it or its not a legitimate original sub sub sub of a sub subgenre)
This is JUST FOR FUN!
Please, no "It's all subjective and these threads are pointless" replies.
I was pondering how I, personally, tend to pigeonhole rock and pop music. It's a continuum, of course, and I'm also the last person who should be doing this, since I do believe in the "there are only two kinds of music: good and bad" bit.
But, JUST FOR FUN, I came up with these criteria. To be "rock" music, it has to contain 3 out of 4 of them:
A) Guitars and drums are present, and sometimes piano and/or saxophone. Roots (however distant) in the blues/country fusion which created rock 'n' roll. Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Bo Diddley, Fats Domino.
B) "Organic" construction-- the members need to have come together naturally (schoolmates (U2), or colleagues on the scene (Cream)) and not have been assembled by the music biz machine (Monkees).
C) A do-it-yourself ethic-- the band members write the material, the level of performance is "raw and untrained", and originality is a goal.
D) An anti-authority attitude, and usually some youthful angst and anger. "Music made by young people FOR young people." Parents are repulsed.
The Rolling Stones, Queen, the Clash, Black Sabbath, Radiohead, R.E.M., Foo Fighters, Bruce Springsteen and the Beach Boys obviously have A, B, C, and D (to give a few examples).
Steely Dan has a polished level of execution, but I'd say that they have all of the rest. I think the sarcasm of their lyrics gives them D.
Yes, King Crimson and Rush don't have D, there is very little of the blues/country roots thing, and their level of execution is polished, but they have the rest, including loud guitars and drums, and fierce originality. Rock music.
The Beatles have (had) A, B, C and D. If you think their early days lacked D, you didn't see them juxtaposed on TV and radio against someone like Robert Goulet in a tuxedo singing a Broadway tune. A stark contrast. Parents were horrified by the hair and by the "blaring" guitars and "pounding" drums. Where are Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme with their Cole Porter medley??
Elton John and Billy Joel? They could have been Tin Pan Alley writers, so to me they are on the brink of pop. But since they do write, and because they contain ever-so-slight vestiges of Little Richard and Elvis, they JUST make it into rock for me.
OK, maybe some of you will have FUN with this FUN little thread, which is intended to be FUN!
Pop: Sweet fizzy drink in a can or bottle
Rock: Something you throw at an abandoned building's windows.
That's a little bit like hearing Nirvana on a "classic rock" station. At this point, "classic rock" seems to mean "not EDM."
The song contains. . . . .
Power chords = Rock
Major 7 chords = Pop
Stairway to Heaven is pop?
