Double Bass Ron Carter

[musicman5string]

I don't understand why you would avoid listening to 30+ years of music from possibly the greatest bass player in the history of jazz because you don't care for his sound. He's played on so many great records and in such a variety of styles since the 60's.

I never said I didn't listen to any of Ron's playing in the last 30years. I really like the one he did with Kenny Barron and Herb Ellis. I think I transcribed the bass line to "Summertime" off that. I've heard a few others from friends that were also quite good.

I also don't understand why you started this thread.

Well, it's a discussion forum about bass, no? I had pulled out "Crossings" after not hearing it for several years, and that was my reaction. I said repeatedly that this was only my opinion, and just because I say it doesn't make it a universal fact. I actually wanted to hear what other bassists think of his sound, and apparently plenty really like it.

Why do you start off by telling us what a huge influence Ron has been on you and then have 3 anti-Ron posts? I'm not saying that your criticism of him is unfair--his sound and his solos are not for everyone--but why start yet another thread trashing Ron Carter's sound. Now that I think of it, I don't really even believe you when you say that Ron has been a "huge influence" on your playing.

I didn't start this thread as "another Ron trashing thread"; as a matter of fact, I began my first post saying how much I love his playing. Also, I'm kind of new here and am not familiar with the fact that there many threads trashing Ron. Now, if you don't "believe" me that he has been a huge influence on my playing, that's you're problem. Here are some lines I've transcribed from Ron:

"Dolphin Dance": Whole tune. Yes, the entire bass line.
"Gingerbread Boy": Walking line from head to end of Miles' solo, then 3 choruses of Herbie's solo.
"Eighty One": Whole tune.
"My Funny Valentine": most of the tune.
"FeeFiFoFum": Whole tune.
"Footprints": Lots of it.
"Speak No Evil": Several choruses.
That's just off the top of my head because those things are so ingrained in my brain. I know I also spent alot of time working on Sonny Rollins' version of "Now's The Time" that Todd Coolman transcribed. I also worked through his lines on the Bird play along from Abersold. That was recorded with the sound I don't like, but the playing is still fantastic.

Every heavyweight player that I've talked to about Ron at a masterclass or lesson has held him in the highest regard.

Agreed. I studied with Dave Holland, Todd Coolman, and Rufus Reid, and all 3 said how much they admired Ron and what an influence he was on their playing.

It kinda sounds to me like you had a teacher or someone else tell you their opinion and you just went with it.

Please see above response.

I believe this thread has run its course. What should've been a good discussion turned into people taking a very defensive and aggressive stance because I said I didn't like Ron's DI sound. I won't bother with a thread like this next time. Mod's, please feel free to close this thread.

 

[TomSauter]

I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers a little--it was late when I wrote and I get a bit grouchy when I'm tired. I apologize for saying that you got your opinions from someone else-that was out of line. But like Sam said, the lukewarm attitude towards Ron gets under my skin sometimes. Every time this topic comes up I'm afraid that a college freshman bassist will see it and start to form a negative attitude towards Ron and miss out on tons of music.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I believe this thread has run its course. What should've been a good discussion turned into people taking a very defensive and aggressive stance because I said I didn't like Ron's DI sound. I won't bother with a thread like this next time. Mod's, please feel free to close this thread.

I think it would be better to leave it open and let any new folks who might happen by be able to add to it. Rather than close it, how about we all just agree to not get our backs up?

 

[musicman5string]

Agreed.

 

[bassa]

"Alone Together" w/Jim Hall made me fall in love with the bass.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I heard some funny stories about Ron from somebody who used to teach with him at City College. Apparently after a rather noisy set at Knickerbocker one night, Ron sat down at a table of the worst offenders and asked where they all worked so he might come by "and make it as hard as possible for you to do your jobs."

And this from Bill Crow, again at the Knickerbocker - somebody came by and handed Ron a $5 bill and requested a tune. He stopped playing to give the money back, telling the guy "That's a $20 tune at least...."

 

[Paul New]

Please don`t get your collective backs up, i know that he is a great musician, but is everybody cool with his intonation ?

 

[TomSauter]

I think part of the intonation issue is those strings he uses--they're so bright that you don't have any room for error. On the 60's recordings you don't hear the bad intonation very much, and on his newer recordings you really only hear it when he's soloing. When he's playing time the other instruments cover up some of the edge on his sound.

This is just a theory of mine, but I think that he plays 10ths a little flat on purpose and corrects them for effect. He's had that bass for 40 years or so, so he must know where the notes are, but he's consistently flat when he plays 10ths. I think that's just part of his style.

 

[Paul New]

OK, mictrotonalism, not bad intonation. That`s what I used to defend him when they were having a big Ron Carter bash on 2xxbasslist a few years ago. Nobody that I have heard has perfect intonaton on this monster anyway. Not sure it`s even possible.

I loved his sound when i first heard it in the 70`s, it was the result of a natural progression and perfect in its time, IMO. Not what I want to hear now, but I don`t think that diminishes his contribution at all.

Sometimes people like to nit-pick those that have been, as they see it, too successful. Christian McBride gets a lot of that. This guy has great pulse, chops, inventive approaches to walking lines and a sound of his own. Exactly what is it that he needs to work on ?

 

[musicman5string]

Christian McBride gets a lot of that. This guy has great pulse, chops, inventive approaches to walking lines and a sound of his own.

Agreed.

Exactly what is it that he needs to work on ?

For me, it would be finesse, for lack of a better word. Everything with Chrisitian McBride is "YEAH! Make that doghouse SWING!" or "Pull them strings! THAT'S playing the bass!" or somesuch attitude...it's all muscle and swagger.

Whereas a guy like Marc Johnson can play the most beautiful solo on a ballad you've ever heard. Some may say he plays "too soft" or whatever, but I'd take Marc's time playing over Christian's any day of the week. Listen to Marc play "Monk's Dream" from his duo record "2x4" for a good example of that.

 

[Jeremy Allen]

For me, it would be finesse, for lack of a better word. Everything with Chrisitian McBride is "YEAH! Make that doghouse SWING!" or "Pull them strings! THAT'S playing the bass!" or somesuch attitude...it's all muscle and swagger.

I think that's nicely put. I find myself inevitably coming to the same conclusion when I make efforts to find the musical nuggets in his playing (and believe me, I've looked long and hard--there's no getting around the fact that he is THE bassist of his generation).

Except that I find myself needing to separate my opinions of McBride's accompaniment playing and his solo playing/choice of material. His solo chops leave me in awe, and yet I always feel that more heat than light was generated. As a sideman, though...he's just a beautiful player, at least in many of the situations I've heard. Joe Henderson's "Lush Life" and "Double Rainbow" stand out in particular. If I could turn in two sides like that in my life, I would be a happy man.

But speaking of generating more heat than light--you don't even want to start another Marc Johnson thread around here...

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Agreed.

For me, it would be finesse, for lack of a better word. Everything with Chrisitian McBride is "YEAH! Make that doghouse SWING!" or "Pull them strings! THAT'S playing the bass!" or somesuch attitude...it's all muscle and swagger.

Whereas a guy like Marc Johnson can play the most beautiful solo on a ballad you've ever heard. Some may say he plays "too soft" or whatever, but I'd take Marc's time playing over Christian's any day of the week.

Or, you could just listen to both of them and enjoy who they are and what they have to offer.

Joe Henderson's "Lush Life" and "Double Rainbow" stand out in particular. If I could turn in two sides like that in my life, I would be a happy man.

Amen. I'd add Benny Green's "Greens" and Diana Krall's "Love Scenes" to that list.

 

[Ike Harris]

Weighing in on the subject of the thread, I have to say RC was THE big influence on me starting on upright from electric and getting into jazz playing in general. I think I first heard him play on the live album with the rest of the CTI stable, George Benson, Stanley Turrentine, Billy Cobham and more. I heard his amplified sound and thought, "Wow, you can really hear the upright on this record, and he's kicking a$$." This coming from a Fender player leaning towards jazz. Then I broadened my listening to Ray Brown, Percy Heath, Mingus and much of the rest, but Ron's hold on my attention hung on for years after that and my sound was reflective of that for a good while. I've since evolved though different sounds(as Ron has) and still experimenting but haven't forgotten the huge part Ron's playing did to get me going and I took the opportunity to tell him so last summer at ISB.

Ike

 

[Aaron Saunders]

There's nothing thin about Ron's sound. Aaron, have you ever heard him live? His sound is huge and commanding, and he anchors the band like no other. Also, I think Ron's sound is as recognizable as Ray Brown or PC.

Unfortunately, my experience with post-68 Ron Carter is limited to his own albums being played continuously on his site. I find his sound to very thin and nasally, gratingly so when he's using the piccolo bass. I much preferred his gut sound with Miles. Is his "new" sound (70's and later) recognizable? No doubt about that. Pleasant to my ears? Nope. But then again, I also dig Coltrane's really harsh tones that a lot of people find awful.

It's also a symptom of certain recordings versus another, though. For instance, I'm pretty sure I've mentioned my love of Warmbuttocks' tone on "My One and Only Love." By the same token, I'm not particularly a fan of the pickup-direct-to-board sound used on "Paulo" with Dick Hindman (although the playing and content are still mindblowing.)

Also, I have regrettably not heard Ron live. It's very much an experience I'd love to go through, though. I couldn't imagine a better education .

 

[TomSauter]

Unfortunately, my experience with post-68 Ron Carter is limited to his own albums being played continuously on his site. I find his sound to very thin and nasally, gratingly so when he's using the piccolo bass. I much preferred his gut sound with Miles. Is his "new" sound (70's and later) recognizable? No doubt about that. Pleasant to my ears? Nope. But then again, I also dig Coltrane's really harsh tones that a lot of people find awful.

It's also a symptom of certain recordings versus another, though. For instance, I'm pretty sure I've mentioned my love of Warmbuttocks' tone on "My One and Only Love." By the same token, I'm not particularly a fan of the pickup-direct-to-board sound used on "Paulo" with Dick Hindman (although the playing and content are still mindblowing.)

Also, I have regrettably not heard Ron live. It's very much an experience I'd love to go through, though. I couldn't imagine a better education .

You're not making a distinction between the sound that Ron gets from his bass and the sound he gets from his amp. He does not have a thin sound, but he has a rather twangy amp sound. He's also adamant about always recording direct. To me, when he started using an amp and pickup, his tone was different, but not his attack on the instrument.

As far as his live sound is concerned, I have a recording of him walking a blues from a master class from about a year ago. I'd be happy to post it if you are interested, although I don't know how and I'm not sure if that's against the rules.

 

[Tbeers]

Only a few things in jazz are entirely quantifiable. I feel that intonation, however, is one of them. RC does not play in tune.

Does that take the value out of his playing? Of course not, but it gets in the way. It's like trying to look at a beautiful painting with the person in front of you blocking half of it.

I feel like I need to see past two things when I am listening to RC's recordings... even recent ones (perhaps especially recent ones)! I have to get past the direct sound of his pickup on the one hand, and his blatantly, almost carelessly poor intonation on the other.

So he's a fabulous soloist with a unique voice, and equally adept at grooving under or with anyone else. That's probably why he's famous, and I'll hand it to him that he can play his ass off. But his intonation and (RECORDED) sound still leave a lot to be desired.

On an ENTIRELY separate note, go see RC play live! His sound is many times better for some reason, and intonation flaws tend not to be noticed as easily during a live performance. I went to see his group a couple years ago and it was a transcendent experience. They played 90 minutes of music without stopping once! Tunes flowed into each other seamlessly and the energy never died.

 

[musicman5string]

I'd like to add a positive note to this thread:
Checking out the plugged nickel sessions again, I'm totally amazed at Ron's endurance at those tempos. You would think back then it would've been even harder without a pickup and amp, because I know when I played like that I tended to overplay because I couldn't hear myself.
Ron seems in total control and relaxed on those recordings. I wonder if you could hear him in the club, since the sound on the cd is not the same as the sound in the house, for sure.
I think I remember Rufus saying he saw that band and the word "pantomiming" was used; in other words, you could SEE Ron playing, but couldn't really HEAR him.
Which would explain going to a pickup and amp.
Still wouldn't explain getting a bad sound out of them though.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I think I remember Rufus saying he saw that band and the word "pantomiming" was used; in other words, you could SEE Ron playing, but couldn't really HEAR him.
Which would explain going to a pickup and amp.

That's funny, this came up in a conversation recently. Alledgedly Ron's nickname when he first got to NYC was "Phantom"...

 

[Jeremy Allen]

And, later, it was allegedly "Cadillac." 'Cuz someone saw an interview where he called himself "the Cadillac of Bassists."

 

[TomSauter]

Lenny White said people call him Checkpoint Charlie because his time is really solid.