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Roy Vogt's Bass Ed Think Tank

#161
Eminentbass said:
And here's another reason why reading is a good idea; I got a call this afternoon to dep for a fiend who does theatre. A month long stint of Highschool Musical in Hong Kong, living expenses covered and good pay. I can play that stuff but I can't read it, so I had to decline.
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You've just given the best argument anyone can for learning to read and why TAB is a Dead End Street. I've gotten so much work and survived over 35 years in this business because I could read. It bought my Alembic in 1976, helped pay my way through college and had kept me working in a town where so many players come here, give up, and move away because it's so darned hard to make a living.....
 
#162
aidan784 said:
To roy or anybody who has been working through the chord tone exercises from the JB article... What keys have you written the min7 chords out in? I figured that since a min7 can be the ii, iii or vi then that could mean (i know its an odd case) a D#min7 in C# or E#min7 or A# etc... Should i ignore this possibility and stick with the keys in the chord studies for electric bass book? Sorry if i haven't explained clearly, but as a more general question how have people been workin the chord tones? How long sticking to one chord type or key, which keys written out? etc... Thanks guys
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I would not worry about harmonic function, but instead I'd just look at each m7, m7b5, m6 etc. as a stand alone harmonic event.
I advise you to write them out in the cycle of 4ths (or 5ths) first:
C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-B-E-A-D and just deal with them as individual sounds. This will cover chords in all 12 keys regardless of function.
When possible, I always try to keep it simple.
 
#163
Thanks for your response roy, yeah I figured it would be ignoring key centres but I knew you'd be able to clarify :) wish I could contribute to the thread more but like everybody has said thanks for doing this, appreciated... On the subject of tab, i think fellow TB'er JTE made one of the best points about it is that it reduces the notes to their physical form just on guitar or bass, which is a really unimportant part of music, which just supports the notion that tab is unmusical, that argument really struck something with me... And this from someone that used to use tab :/ im 17 and ive wasted 3 and a half years doing maybe the 'rockstar' dream but the JB threads have made me realise how to be a better player :) thanks for your help roy...
 
#164
Eminentbass said:
And here's another reason why reading is a good idea; I got a call this afternoon to dep for a fiend who does theatre. A month long stint of Highschool Musical in Hong Kong, living expenses covered and good pay. I can play that stuff but I can't read it, so I had to decline.
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I need a point of clarification here. You're saying you can't read music, but you were sitting in a coffee shop not long ago WRITING music.

When people say "reading" does that really mean sight reading? I can look at a clef and figure out what notes to play, I can know what key the song is in and recognize patterns in the notes, but I can't look at music and know in my head what it will sound like or read and play in time on the fly.
 
#165
chadhargis said:
I need a point of clarification here. You're saying you can't read music, but you were sitting in a coffee shop not long ago WRITING music.

When people say "reading" does that really mean sight reading? I can look at a clef and figure out what notes to play, I can know what key the song is in and recognize patterns in the notes, but I can't look at music and know in my head what it will sound like or read and play in time on the fly.
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I can read and write music so if I get charts in advance I can get familiar with them but I can't sight read in time. The tour's only in September so I could put effort in and be ready but it's risky to my chances later on if I botch it and could damage the reputation of the guy who referred me.

I'm working on my reading daily but it's potentially harmful to take on work before being qualified for it.
 
#166
Eminentbass said:
I can read and write music so if I get charts in advance I can get familiar with them but I can't sight read in time. The tour's only in September so I could put effort in and be ready but it's risky to my chances later on if I botch it and could damage the reputation of the guy who referred me.

I'm working on my reading daily but it's potentially harmful to take on work before being qualified for it.
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This is the single biggest detriment to my income. I've totally dedicated my energies to bass for a year and a half or so, though I've been playing bass for twenty (training on jazz guitar with some keyboards, my love is bass) and the reading is gradually coming up to par. I can read, and write myself. I needed about a month to six weeks to get a chart together the likes of South Pacific or Anything Goes. It's probably down quite a bit from that but not where I want or need it to be.

It seems odd, I could sight read on sax, and do ok on guitar with standard notation of chords, bass seems a bit more difficult, and it's usually only one note at a time!
 
#168
chadhargis said:
If it's something you can get on CD, is it possible to internalize it and play it from memory?

Sorry for the silly questions, but I'd rather learn from others than make the mistakes myself.
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The pieces are long, contain incidental music not on cd's and often times there are cuts etc to deal with. There may also be key changes etc. I've dealt with HS pit work, but make no mistake the guys hired to do this are all in our city symphony and the pay is competetive. You will also be called on to "Go to the railroad tracks" or to "the 32nd measure" etc in rehearsal so memorization of a line doesn't help.

Sight reading is a part of the professional sport of playing an instrument, to get the best pay you've got to hang. I'd prefer not to "hang on for dear life" makes for a long ardous day of work.


The third show I was offered was West Side Story, I "conveniently" had other gigs lined up and decided to get better at sight reading.

Totally off the wall but Roy, do you know the drummers Lee Kelly or Jim Brock?
 
#169
chadhargis said:
If it's something you can get on CD, is it possible to internalize it and play it from memory?

Sorry for the silly questions, but I'd rather learn from others than make the mistakes myself.
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Apparently the score is almost identical to the movie so it's possible to do that. But one needs to follow the music and the conductor when dealing with a live cast. And there are overtures and so on that won't be in a movie soundtrack. What worries me is that I'll only get three days of rehearsal upon arrival in Hong Kong which means letting a whole lot of people down if I'm not ready and it's too late to get someone better in.

I earn my living playing bass but this is a whole new league to what I'm used to.
 
#170
Roy is an excellent teacher and I studied with Roy off and on for two years (when I was in college at MTSU) as money permitted back in the late 1980's and early 1990's. Good to see your around Roy, Your a walking/playing musical encyclopedia.

Eric Swaim
Murfreesboro TN
 
#171
Billnc said:
This is the single biggest detriment to my income. I've totally dedicated my energies to bass for a year and a half or so, though I've been playing bass for twenty (training on jazz guitar with some keyboards, my love is bass) and the reading is gradually coming up to par. I can read, and write myself. I needed about a month to six weeks to get a chart together the likes of South Pacific or Anything Goes. It's probably down quite a bit from that but not where I want or need it to be.

It seems odd, I could sight read on sax, and do ok on guitar with standard notation of chords, bass seems a bit more difficult, and it's usually only one note at a time!
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I actually studied jazz guitar as well because there wasn't a bass instructor at the university. Reading has always been my nemesis mainly because I never priortised it and I focused on other aspects of what I was learning. A big mistake which I'm now trying to rectify. I have a good ear and a good memory so I managed to learn my pieces using the music but once I had that done, I didn't have to read them in real time. I even taught guitar at a school for two years but mostly grades 3 through 7 and beginner stuff.

It's not even about professional opportunities for me. I love big band music and would play in one just for the pleasure of it. But there comes the reading again.
 
#172
swaim said:
Roy is an excellent teacher and I studied with Roy off and on for two years (when I was in college at MTSU) as money permitted back in the late 1980's and early 1990's. Good to see your around Roy, Your a walking/playing musical encyclopedia.

Eric Swaim
Murfreesboro TN
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Thanks for the kind words, Eric. Just want you to know your old Carruthers SUB-1 is alive and well and gigging it's tail off! :D
 
#173
Eminentbass said:
I actually studied jazz guitar as well because there wasn't a bass instructor at the university. Reading has always been my nemesis mainly because I never priortised it and I focused on other aspects of what I was learning. A big mistake which I'm now trying to rectify. I have a good ear and a good memory so I managed to learn my pieces using the music but once I had that done, I didn't have to read them in real time. I even taught guitar at a school for two years but mostly grades 3 through 7 and beginner stuff.

It's not even about professional opportunities for me. I love big band music and would play in one just for the pleasure of it. But there comes the reading again.
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My issue with sight reading was being told to put music in front of me I never saw before and reading through it. Do not review it for at least a few days, do not go over it more than twice in a sitting, and grab another piece of music and do the same. Jeff's method is working quite well and many years of reading stagnation are coming to an end.

I'm with you on the big band thing.
 
#175
Billnc said:
My issue with sight reading was being told to put music in front of me I never saw before and reading through it. Do not review it for at least a few days, do not go over it more than twice in a sitting, and grab another piece of music and do the same. Jeff's method is working quite well and many years of reading stagnation are coming to an end.

I'm with you on the big band thing.
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I actually played in the university big band. The music mostly had chord charts to accompany the notation and I took my file home and could review any "play as written" charts. I did have the humiliating experience of getting new music at rehearsals on occasion and being the only guy there who got totally lost.

I've taken a lot to heart on this thread regarding practice and growth. It's not about quantity of practice but quality. And a little bit of "good stuff" on a regular and consistent basis is what's producing results that I haven't seen in years.
 
#176
Threads like this excite me because I see the passion and hard work even great players still put in. It's nice to learn from those who have been doing this for years.

Thanks to all of you who share your experiences.
 
#177
Billnc said:
The pieces are long, contain incidental music not on cd's and often times there are cuts etc to deal with. There may also be key changes etc. I've dealt with HS pit work, but make no mistake the guys hired to do this are all in our city symphony and the pay is competetive. You will also be called on to "Go to the railroad tracks" or to "the 32nd measure" etc in rehearsal so memorization of a line doesn't help.
Click to expand...

Pit work is the most fun a reading musician can have, IMO. It is guaranteed to keep you on your toes, for a 1000 reasons.

Sight reading is a part of the professional sport of playing an instrument, to get the best pay you've got to hang. I'd prefer not to "hang on for dear life" makes for a long ardous day of work.
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yep - and when I hear people say "I can read", I fully expect them to be able to read at 'that' level. Otherwise, you're just working on your reading. But maybe that's because that's the work environment I've been in for the last 20 something years. You can't even get in the door unless you can read like that.
The third show I was offered was West Side Story, I "conveniently" had other gigs lined up and decided to get better at sight reading.
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Be glad you did. I've played that show, and it's a bear.
 
#179
Eminentbass said:
Apparently the score is almost identical to the movie so it's possible to do that. But one needs to follow the music and the conductor when dealing with a live cast. And there are overtures and so on that won't be in a movie soundtrack. What worries me is that I'll only get three days of rehearsal upon arrival in Hong Kong which means letting a whole lot of people down if I'm not ready and it's too late to get someone better in.

I earn my living playing bass but this is a whole new league to what I'm used to.
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Great stuff, your attitude is that one that will see you get far when you feel you are "up to scratch". In this biz there is always and i mean akways someone who can do the job so never feel pressure to take gigs if they are not for you. :)

ps i'm sitting in a hotel room in France at 2.30 in the morning with a glass of wine after some great shows this week.......but hey! thats music..:)
 
#180
Fergie Fulton said:
Great stuff, your attitude is that one that will see you get far when you feel you are "up to scratch". In this biz there is always and i mean akways someone who can do the job so never feel pressure to take gigs if they are not for you. :)

ps i'm sitting in a hotel room in France at 2.30 in the morning with a glass of wine after some great shows this week.......but hey! thats music..:)
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Thanks for the encouragement :) that's the great thing about music. I've been fortunate in that I've had the chance to see a bit of the world, some at my own expense with original bands and some at the expense of people who hired me. I've stayed in fancy hotels and I've tented in a park in Manchester where it rained 7 out of the 10 days I was there. I wouldn't trade any of it.
 

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