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Roy Vogt's Bass Ed Think Tank

#121
Why is that when referring to scales degrees or progessions most of you seem to write...
ii,IV,V instead of II,IV,V ?

Is there anything significant about using "ii" as opposed to "II", or is it just a variation wiht the exact same meaning? Until I started to visiting this forum I always saw the 2 written as II. I think it doesn't matter how you write it, but I wanted to make sure I wasnt missing something important.
 
#123
bassy7 said:
Why is that when referring to scales degrees or progessions most of you seem to write...
ii,IV,V instead of II,IV,V ?

Is there anything significant about using "ii" as opposed to "II", or is it just a variation wiht the exact same meaning? Until I started to visiting this forum I always saw the 2 written as II. I think it doesn't matter how you write it, but I wanted to make sure I wasnt missing something important.
Click to expand...

When speaking in terms of scale degrees or the chord the number represents, upper case refers to major and lower case represents minor.
 
#124
"Roy, do you think using a number chart is a suitably academic way to work through a piece or standard in all keys or do you advise students to write out charts in all keys?"

This question wasn't aimed at Roy specifically- but I'd like to put in my 2 cents. If I want to quickly just shift the key of something I am playing, whether it is a song or some learning exercise--- its often easiest to just shift the entire "pattern" up or down the neck, or strings. The downside to this is it can make us so dependent on fretboard patterns, without regard to the actual notes, that we may be missing out on a learning opportunity. As many of us know, sometimes a key change requires that we completely change the "fretboard pattern", I know this can trip me up if I relied to heavily on the pattern approach with little regard to the notes.
 
#125
"ii means minor chord, II means major chord. Same with the other chords."

Thanks guys- that was a very DUH moment for me. I suppose its more economical to use that approach than IIm, or IImaj. In all of my previous bands we just used chord names.

Another simple one-- I just got the Real Book in bass clef. IN Autumn Leaves several parts of the progession show the chord as "E-" , I am not sure what to make of this.
 
#126
bassy7 said:
"Roy, do you think using a number chart is a suitably academic way to work through a piece or standard in all keys or do you advise students to write out charts in all keys?"

This question wasn't aimed at Roy specifically- but I'd like to put in my 2 cents. If I want to quickly just shift the key of something I am playing, whether it is a song or some learning exercise--- its often easiest to just shift the entire "pattern" up or down the neck, or strings. The downside to this is it can make us so dependent on fretboard patterns, without regard to the actual notes, that we may be missing out on a learning opportunity. As many of us know, sometimes a key change requires that we completely change the "fretboard pattern", I know this can trip me up if I relied to heavily on the pattern approach with little regard to the notes.
Click to expand...

At the moment I'm working on various chord tone exercises and writing each one out as I move through the cycle of 4ths(which gives me something to do when chilling at my favourite coffee joint :) ). I'm also trying to not get to dependant on patterns. It is all out of time stuff I'm doing which gives time to put a chord name to the number on the chart but then again sitting down and writing each chart in different keys might be a good exercise too. My living room floor is already carpeted with copious amounts of manuscript paper :D
 
#127
bassy7 said:
"ii means minor chord, II means major chord. Same with the other chords."

Thanks guys- that was a very DUH moment for me. I suppose its more economical to use that approach than IIm, or IImaj. In all of my previous bands we just used chord names.

Another simple one-- I just got the Real Book in bass clef. IN Autumn Leaves several parts of the progession show the chord as "E-" , I am not sure what to make of this.
Click to expand...

The hyphen in E- represents minor. You'll see GM7 which is major seven whereas lower case m is minor. There are various ways of showing major or minor which gets confusing at times if you're used to one specific method. A triangle also represents a major 7 if you run into one of those. A small circle is diminished, a small circle with a line through is half-diminished although minor 7b5 is more commonly used for those.
 
#128
"The hyphen in E- represents minor. You'll see GM7 which is major seven whereas lower case m is minor. There are various ways of showing major or minor which gets confusing at times if you're used to one specific method. A triangle also represents a major 7 if you run into one of those. A small circle is diminished, a small circle with a line through is half-diminished although minor 7b5 is more commonly used for those."

This good bit of info will be hand written onto the back inside cover my Real Book! I was just about to ask what the circle with a slash in it means.

thank you
 
#129
bassy7 said:
"The hyphen in E- represents minor. You'll see GM7 which is major seven whereas lower case m is minor. There are various ways of showing major or minor which gets confusing at times if you're used to one specific method. A triangle also represents a major 7 if you run into one of those. A small circle is diminished, a small circle with a line through is half-diminished although minor 7b5 is more commonly used for those."

This good bit of info will be hand written onto the back inside cover my Real Book! I was just about to ask what the circle with a slash in it means.

thank you
Click to expand...

You're welcome :)
 
#130
Eminentbass said:
Roy, do you think using a number chart is a suitably academic way to work through a piece or standard in all keys or do you advise students to write out charts in all keys?
Click to expand...

The tricky bit of business about that is what sort of number chart? If you're doing by chord function be prepared to have some sort of shorthand for the many key centers you'll have to go to in a typical standard.
The Nashville Number System is an option, but it tends to be more useful for Pop and Country tunes that stay in one key. If you try to NNS I'll Remember April you may have something that looks like a quadratic equation when you're done.
Why not take the standard chart and just try to transpose by relationship? For example, take Autumn Leaves in the Real Book Key (Em) and transpose it up or down to Dm, Ebm, Fm, and F#m for starters. Most of the time in the Real World you have to transpose a tune in a small range to place the tune in a comfortable range for a singer. FWIW, F and Bb seem to be great keys for Women Vocalists-helpful thing to know.
In the Real World, you generally don't have time to write an additional chart, you may have to transpose off the top of your head.
One thing I'd definitely have down "off the paper" is 12 Bar Blues (both Blues and Jazz Changes) in all 12 keys and Rhythm Changes in Bb, F, Eb, and Ab at least (the friendliest keys for sax and trumpet).
 
#132
Roy Vogt said:
The tricky bit of business about that is what sort of number chart? If you're doing by chord function be prepared to have some sort of shorthand for the many key centers you'll have to go to in a typical standard.
The Nashville Number System is an option, but it tends to be more useful for Pop and Country tunes that stay in one key. If you try to NNS I'll Remember April you may have something that looks like a quadratic equation when you're done.
Why not take the standard chart and just try to transpose by relationship? For example, take Autumn Leaves in the Real Book Key (Em) and transpose it up or down to Dm, Ebm, Fm, and F#m for starters. Most of the time in the Real World you have to transpose a tune in a small range to place the tune in a comfortable range for a singer. FWIW, F and Bb seem to be great keys for Women Vocalists-helpful thing to know.
In the Real World, you generally don't have time to write an additional chart, you may have to transpose off the top of your head.
One thing I'd definitely have down "off the paper" is 12 Bar Blues (both Blues and Jazz Changes) in all 12 keys and Rhythm Changes in Bb, F, Eb, and Ab at least (the friendliest keys for sax and trumpet).
Click to expand...

Thank you. I wasn't sure how to go about dealing with the constant modulations apart from using the starting key's scale as a template and flattening or sharpening the relevant deviations from that key and representing the chord type with symbols. It seems it might complicate things more though.
 
#133
For some strange reason, learning notation hasn't been all that hard to me. I guess because it's very logical. II vs. ii makes sense. One is major one is minor. I can follow that.

What trips me up is PLAYING those notes. My knowledge of the fretboard is just awful. Tell me to find a F# and it will take me quite awhile to figure out which string and which fret that note falls on. I think this is mainly because the notes are in more than one place. How do I know which note to start on?

Last night at my lesson we were working on chord tones and Adam was telling me to play the root-3-5-7. So I did, then he said, "Use your first finger to hit the 3", so logical me slid my hand up the neck and hit the three. Being a patient man, he said, "No, the three right there" and pointed that there was a 3 easily reachable by my first finger. AHHHHHHH, I get it. But I felt like a freakin' idiot. It's the same 3 that I learned playing the standard old major scale pattern.

Stuff like that drives me crazy, but I can guarantee you I won't forget that lesson learned. I guess that means I'm getting better.
 
#134
There have been a couple of posts about/questioning fretboard patterns. I have what some might think is a heretical view of them:they help you to learn.
Think back to when you learned to read and write English (or whatever your first language is). Part of the learning process was learning and memorizing vowels and consonants and "sounding out" words.
I would be willing to bet none of you are "sounding out" my post ;).
Why?
I believe it's because we internalize patterns of speech and written language and they become our vocabulary. My default fingering for a major triad is 2-1-4. It's not the only one I know, but I can use it all over the bass neck and play a major triad anywhere I want to. For me to negate that and start from scratch every time is akin to "sounding out" this post.
The kicker is that you always should know the note you're playing. With modes it's not hard at all-it's always one of 7 possibilities. Internalizing fingering patterns and strategies are one thing we have at an advantage because of the symmetrical tuning of the bass strings. I personally advocate using everything we can to learn, patterns, whatever.
TAB isn't in the same category IMO because it doesn't exist in the Real World of Working Musicians. I can make a cautious exception when you're trying to emulate a Stu Hamm or Victor Wooten "trick" line and it creates a shortcut to see the actual physical "trick", but learning exclusively from TAB is a Dead End Street, IMHO.
 
#135
That's the same fingering I have been taught, but the thing that threw me was I was taught to play two octaves across the neck. So starting on my B string, my fingering is this for a major scale (ionian):

---1-----3--4
---1--2-----4
---1--2-----4
1-----2-----4
1-----2-----4

The confusing thing to me is immediately knowing where to start. When Adam told me to play the 3, I defaulted to what I'd been practicing for hours upon hours. The 1-2-4 pattern. What he was asking me to do is play as if I were on the second octave (since we started on C (third fret, A string). I was trying to make the stretch with my pinky to play the three, which worked, but it's not as easy as using my first finger.

Guess that's why I pay for lessons. To learn things I already know but didn't know I knew. LOL! :)

The hardest thing for me right now is too many choices. Too many possibilities. If the bass only had one string, I think I'd be much further advanced by now. Anyone got a good wash tub and a broom stick?
 
#136
Great post, Roy. Patterns become second nature and a sign of familiarity and fluency. I'm at the moment writing out any exercise more for the purpose of understanding what's behind a pattern and how it relates to music in general, not just the bass. Apologies if anything said in any of my earlier posts gave the impression that I'm looking down on patterns.
 
#137
chadhargis said:
That's the same fingering I have been taught, but the thing that threw me was I was taught to play two octaves across the neck. So starting on my B string, my fingering is this for a major scale (ionian):

---1-----3--4
---1--2-----4
---1--2-----4
1-----2-----4
1-----2-----4

The confusing thing to me is immediately knowing where to start. When Adam told me to play the 3, I defaulted to what I'd been practicing for hours upon hours. The 1-2-4 pattern. What he was asking me to do is play as if I were on the second octave (since we started on C (third fret, A string). I was trying to make the stretch with my pinky to play the three, which worked, but it's not as easy as using my first finger.

Guess that's why I pay for lessons. To learn things I already know but didn't know I knew. LOL! :)

The hardest thing for me right now is too many choices. Too many possibilities. If the bass only had one string, I think I'd be much further advanced by now. Anyone got a good wash tub and a broom stick?
Click to expand...

That's sort of the "stretchy" fingering advocated by Billy Sheehan and Steve Bailey. It's not my first choice, but it can be useful for scale runs and for an additional treat, tap the top note on each string with your RH index finger after fretting the bottom two with your LH-instant Victor Wooten! ;)
FWIW, here's my starting fingerings for the 1 octave modes on 4 string bass. They're pretty standard for a lot of players.
 

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#138
Eminentbass said:
I'm at the moment writing out any exercise more for the purpose of understanding what's behind a pattern and how it relates to music in general
Click to expand...

This is the way I learn best. I have to know "why". Why am I playing this pattern? To learn the scale modes, I first circled all the notes that differed from the ionian mode for each of the other modes. Then I determined WHY they were different. For example, dorian is a "flatted" 3 and 7. From there, I could easily play the "pattern" because I only had to remember one pattern (ionian) and two simple changes to it.

By breaking things down to their simplest elements, I can better understand how they all fit together.
 
#139
I have mixed feelings about tab. I read pretty well and i prefere the "real thing" without a doubt.. But, sometimes i use it when a student is not capable of finding out for himself (or remember my suggestions) good fingerings.
 
#140
odin70 said:
I have mixed feelings about tab. I read pretty well and i prefere the "real thing" without a doubt.. But, sometimes i use it when a student is not capable of finding out for himself (or remember my suggestions) good fingerings.
Click to expand...

You might try this: Teach your students the "position concept" on the Electric Bass. That is, whatever fret the first (index) finger is on defines the position. First fret=I, second=II, etc. Unlike URB there's no "half position". I write out the music, put in positions and fingerings and even put the string under it. It tends to work and eases them into reading music.
 

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