Here's a silly question because I'm a complete hack on upright and have no concept of proper technique on the instrument but what's half-position?
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Roy Vogt's Bass Ed Think Tank
- Thread starter Roy Vogt
- Start date
Glad you asked that question. I've never touched an URB. In fact, until you asked, I had no idea what "URB" stood for.
DOH!
I'm not stupid, just ignorant. LOL!
half-position is where your index finger fiinger is over the notes f, b-flat, e-flat, and a-flat. If an upright bass had frets, this would be the first fret. In half-position you are only able to play three notes (unless you have Andre the giant hands) in that same position.
First position would be with your hand scooted up one "fret" so your index finger is now over F#, B, E, and A.
This type of discussion comes from the simandl method, and other viol family methods.
I don't find it personally that helpful to thing of positions on electric bass, but Roy is suggesting using this as a tool to learn to read music and maybe it would help there.
First position would be with your hand scooted up one "fret" so your index finger is now over F#, B, E, and A.
This type of discussion comes from the simandl method, and other viol family methods.
I don't find it personally that helpful to thing of positions on electric bass, but Roy is suggesting using this as a tool to learn to read music and maybe it would help there.
While not as big as Andre's, my hands are so big they get in the way. Maybe I should find an upright, put a couple of pickups on it, and turn it over my knee. Might fit me quite well.
If you have enormous hands, and learn advanced pivoting technique, you could probably get away with one note per finger in half position. Even then, your third finger is just not going to be strong enough to always play this way and it would just be used for certain passages.
Chad, you should consider getting an upright fitted with a strap that way you can wear it like a guitar.
Chad, you should consider getting an upright fitted with a strap that way you can wear it like a guitar.
Ah, thanks. I'm a total hack on upright. I don't even know the correct fingering for a major scale on one. I don't own one anymore and that's one huge regret.
- Sep 20, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
I do think the one thing that thinking in positions can help with is economy of motion. If you are using one finger per fret on a four string, you have an effective range of an octave and a tritone with no shifts. On a 5 string that's an octave and a minor 7th and on a 6 string 2 octaves + a minor 3rd. The trick is to think horizontally across the fingerboard, rather than vertically up the D and G strings as Simandl teaches.
BTW, if you add one shift in your position (either 1-1234 or 1234-4) you can have a complete chromatic scale with these ranges.
I'll hopefully have time to put together my TAB-B-GONE lesson over the weekend so you all can see how this works.
I've been playing two full octaves across my fiver with one hand position, but it's been across a five fret range for each string, which thanks to having Sasquatch hands, I don't have to move my hand to reach.
i'm not an expert but at this stage of the game is economy of motion a priority....i wonder if this is not one of those things that will become apparent as a by product of practicing everything else.....
- Nov 17, 2005
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- Author, Slap It! Funk Studies for the Electric Bass
Roy,
They made me do it! I fought putting TAB in for many years.
I have to admit it actually ended up be OK though. The TAB does convey a little extra info.
That said, I can't imagine trying to learn the examples in Slap It! using only the TAB, but it does come in handy in understanding exactly how I'm playing the examples on the instrument.
Of course a student may always ignore the TAB, and I'd encourage any bass player to learn how to read standard notation as well as chord charts.
Thanks again for mentioning my book!
Cheers!
Tony
- Sep 20, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
In my opinion yes. If you're sight reading and can essentially look at the fingerboard like you do a QWERTY keyboard, you can read what most arrangers will be writing for Electric Bass in one or two positions. I can't tell you how many times I see students attempting to read Charlie Parker heads and going down in flames because they are only comfortable in reading in the first 5 frets and anything higher results in a death-defying leap up the fingerboard where they have a 50/50 chance of missing the note.
The other aspect of this is that elusive and maligned word: chops. If you study players like Victor Wooten and Hadrian Feraud you'll notice that their fingers barely move off the fingerboard. I liken having the option of speed through relaxed economy of motion to having to pass a Semi and having the option of 2 cars that will hit 80 mph-a Porsche Boxter or a Kia. They can both hit 80, but I'll choose the car that can do it in first gear.
If you're working on the information and focusing on not moving too much around the fingerboard the whole idea of "chops" takes care of itself.
- Sep 20, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
My sympathies, Tony. I had to TAB out Bass Extremes and really didn't want to but the economy of music books (40% more sales with TAB) won out.
That is still a great Slap Book! The only thing missing is Double Thumbing and I can teach that in 5 minutes so it really doesn't matter.....
Add Adam Nitti to that list. When he shows me something, I have to ask him to do it again because I honestly can't tell which finger he's pressing down with and I'm sitting 4 feet from him. His fingers move that little.
Mine flail about as if unattached to my hand.
That is what I meant about not thinking in positions-getting away from the Simandl method. I agree 100% with what you are talking about, thinking horizontally in higher positions. (not that my opinion is really that important!) With a good 5-string, I find it tonally preferable to play in higher positions most of the time.
Begining to play is about supporting both aspects of the challange, the physical and the mental.
If we start with notes, their value and relationship to the stave (the 5 lines and 4 spaces when looking at a piece of notation). A simple time sig. of 4/4 will do to begin with and start with a C scale. All ways start with a C scale as it is perfect (no sharps of flats needed to make it conform).
In learning to finger this scale two things will become apparant,
1/it is hard to handle the physical side of it.
2/ it is hard to handle the mental side of it.
As we progress these two points will lessen and change and it is how we develop with these two points in mind. We have all seen there are players who the physical side is not a challange, they play with free abandon what they want without ever understanding it at an academic level.
I always say you open a door by reaching out and turning the handle, you do not need to understand the physical anatomy and body mechanics to do it, or understand how the door handle and lock mechinism works.
Playing is the same thing, it is about function, or being fit for purpose.
Just that lowly C scale in trying to master it in physical and the mental will lead you to the next level with a foundation on what was before. This is the way to develop understand how to build knowledge that is functional....fit for purpose.
That C scale will train and tone your hands and fingers, by slowly giving them new challanges in strengh, flexability, dexterity and co-ordination. On the mental side you will hear the notes, see the areas for sharps and flats and build a new scale from this one scale if you so wish and so the information stay relevent to the mental and the physical, the two grow and develop side by side.
What i encouter a lot in players is this balance is out so one has to be corrected, but corrected to match the other and be relevent to it. Again this is a modern phenomina in learning. Information cannot be controlled so the student will get ideas and information out of sequence and then problems begin, because the foundation for this "new idea" is not in place in the physical or the mental.
From the basics of a C scale, building new scales will lead and give a foundation to keys, trads, arps., time sigs, melody, chords, harmony, compound time sigs, etc etc, and FINISH with modes. This is a personal thing with me as it was how i was taught, modes are a twist to the plot, if you understand all that has gone before... modes are simple to see, and so see how they work.
I ask this question a lot and with various degrees of information in the answers, so i will ask it here
Do you understand what the C scale is, how and why it functions, and its relevence to all other scales?
Seems like a simple question, but its answers will apply to most of what you learn, as it is about its relationship to all around it, more than about the C scale itself.
Agreed!
It seems I get one or the other, but seldom both at the same time. I either understand things academically, but have to work like crazy to get it under my fingers, or I can play it and have no idea why I can play it, what it is, what it's called, or what it relates to...it just sounds good.
Slowly but surely, I'm starting to see that gap close. One thing that is happening more and more is something Jeff used to profess. If you practice, it will show up in your playing.
I was playing last night, and found that I was able to follow the song I was playing with pretty well, even through bridges and such. I don't know how I knew how to do it, but maybe weeks of practicing scales and learning how the notes sound in relation to each other has worked into my subconscious.
I still have lots and lots to learn, and always will, however, each week things become less and less "mysterious" and I feel less overwhelmed.
Getting started is the hard part. Once you establish a foundation and hit your learning "stride" you can cover some ground.
And here's another reason why reading is a good idea; I got a call this afternoon to dep for a fiend who does theatre. A month long stint of Highschool Musical in Hong Kong, living expenses covered and good pay. I can play that stuff but I can't read it, so I had to decline.
To roy or anybody who has been working through the chord tone exercises from the JB article... What keys have you written the min7 chords out in? I figured that since a min7 can be the ii, iii or vi then that could mean (i know its an odd case) a D#min7 in C# or E#min7 or A# etc... Should i ignore this possibility and stick with the keys in the chord studies for electric bass book? Sorry if i haven't explained clearly, but as a more general question how have people been workin the chord tones? How long sticking to one chord type or key, which keys written out? etc... Thanks guys
