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Roy Vogt's Bass Ed Think Tank

I understand the not a fan of tabs -but so far that is what i can do untill i can figure out how to read the music language. the reason i ask about books is because i saw you earlier post about the Paul Wesstwood Bass Bible ,would that also be a book for me or is it too advanced or something? thanks again for the responces.

The Bass Bible is a good source as well. Overthrow's books are good if you know nothing about playing. He starts with simple major scales and triads and moves on to other areas.
One thing I notice about Bass Methods is that they are like Diet/Exercise or Financial Fitness books. Most of them are good and they have great advice. The rub is having the discipline to put them into action.
It's cool, really. There's more good and positive information out there than ever before. It's almost tempting to just go get lost in all of it and never quite do the work. You could get several years worth of work just out of Jeff's one page article and your own imagination.
Chad, learning anything is like a crock pot rather than a microwave. You just have to put all of your lessons with Adam and other material in and let it simmer. Don't worry about the reason or outcome for each exercise-it's a process.
I could recommend 10-15 books apiece in every genre that have good information. The trick is to take things from where you are at personally and build your knowledge base a step at a time.
Once again, I'm reminded how much Music is like Fitness or Finance. There's a tried and true process for all of them, and we generally only get in trouble when we look for shortcuts.
 
Hi Roy - You mentioned a 1000+ students to your credit.
How often is your preference for a private lesson?
Weekly? Monthly? etc...Let's assume an adult learner that will practice at least an hour a day. - thanks, Don

For young students I recommend a 30 minute lesson a week. It is a good reinforcement and about as much information as most beginning players can handle.
For adult learners no less than an hour every other week seems to work. I have some Pro Players that come in for a "tune up" every now and then, but that's a different case.
Weekly lessons work if the student is putting serious time in (say my Belmont Bass Majors). It's like practice-the more time you invest the quicker the improvement.
 
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Roy, what is the most effective method (or methods) to use to master the fretboard?


A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste! :cool:

There's all sorts of options-working diatonic chords all over the board, working cycle of 4ths progressions, reading Classical Music like the Bach Cello Suites and finding more than one place to play them. If you have The Improvisor's Bass Method you can use the first 3 or 4 Chapters and make great strides.
"Mastering" anything is a tricky term-when do you consider it mastered? I don't think it's as much a destination as a journey, myself. (Wow, Zen Bass....;))
 
to REAPER52 and any others out there using tab...............
Reaper52- "I understand the not a fan of tabs -but so far that is what i can do untill i can figure out how to read the music language"

While I am just getting into properly learning how to read standard notation myself. I definitely think that even you if really stink at reading std. notation that it is still much easier/efficient to make sense of than TAB. I realize that this totally goes against what most people that can't read music think. As they think of TAB-> its just a super easy way to learn a song.

Here are some of the reasons I developed this opinion... EDIT-- This is not written well, the thoughts were only really developing as they came out but here they are. I hope this may hit the TAB only readers in the right way and help sway them to learn std. notaton.

So even though I stink at sight reading notation right now- after just 2 months after studying/practicing standard notation I can read notation much more efficiently/easily than I can read TAB.

I think people are intimidated by all the information that is often displayed in standard notation-- being able to properly comprehend and properly execute all of the variations in REAL TIME of note values, and rest values, as well as dynamics, tempo markings, repeat symbols, etc, etc..... is definitely a daunting tasking. But while in the learning stages of reading standard notation, it is not neccesary to understand all of this stuff from the beginning- but it is there for you to interpret when you are are ready for it.

So if you don't read standard notation- then you can start simple and just write the note names on the staff- or perhaps even next to each note as you get acquanted with it. Then as with TAB you can simply translate those notes onto your bass, you don't have to pay attention to all of the other info on the page, you can just read it for the notes. But it just so happens that there is more info for there for you if you need it. Now I am not suggestioning in any way that this is a good habit to get into, but I do think it could be a useful experiment for a non-reader to try. They might see the light and really see what they are missing out on by relying on tab.

While most musicians seem to play rock, pop or something to that affect and never actually encounter sheet music with their band situations (I know I never have) it is definitely a tool that can really help us learn. I would speculate that most of us, bassits, wish (at one time or another) that we could play some really quite complex melodic passages or tunes. Whether it is a really happening solo in a pop song, a classical lead melody, or a jazz melody. The problem is that I've personally always wanted to play some things like this, but I never could really get myself to commit to learning/memorizing such a piece of music that I would never play in any sort of performance situation. Most of this stuff can't be found in TAB... and even if it can be, good luck reading and executing it in real time without really memorizing it. So if we start basic and learn to read simple standard notation then perhaps one day we will be able to just look at a peice of paper with one these complex (and hard to "memorize") tunes and just play it properly the first time! Wow what a thought! I am loving the journey, but I am damn excited to think that one day I may be able to just get sheet music for tunes I never could comprehend and then just play them!

I am amazed that so many of us have committed countless hours, years, decades to the music and instruments we love to play, thousands$ in equipment, missed out on precioud time with friends and family, YET most of us spent so much time gigging or jamming without ever really putting the time into learning theory properly, or how to read. I think nearly all of us really need to look at why we play and then STEP IT UP! if it is that important to us. If you just want to be able to play some simple rock lines in front of a bar crowd, hey thats fine, that could be enough for you, but I think most of us want more than basic performance skills- so lets really dig in.

I'm going to attempt to put aside some time in the next couple of days and post a rudimentary "TAB-B-GONE" bass lesson here. Stay tuned....
 
Chad---
Perhaps you are trying to get to much musical information into your brain at once! I have a habit of doing that as well, fortunately in most of my endeavors I can absorb that info like a sponge when I am really into it. This music theory business is different though- the aural part is what slows us down- it apparently takes more time to absorb the sound into our minds than the facts. And "knowing" the sounds are what helps us really know the music facts- as opposed to just memorizing those musical facts. The human brain can only memorize so much info before new memorized info pushes the previously memorized stuff out.

Yep, you got me pegged. All my life, learning has been easy (except for math, I was never good at anything mathematical). School was a joke to me, even honors classes. I was the guy who never studied. Never took notes. Just sat and listened....cool...I got it. Next class please. Did this all through college. I do this in my work too. I'll sit in a meeting and people will be scribbling away...I just pay attention and internalize it. I also do quite a bit of teaching. Don't use a book for anything other than referring to page numbers and diagrams. I teach out of my head.

Much of the things I'm good at I was never taught. I just figured it out logically. Did a little research. Asked a few questions, and bam....I got it.

So imagine the frustration when I sit down to learn music and most of it makes no sense to me. I play an exercise and my fingers trip over themselves. I spend hours working on something and see no benefit from it. It's the most challenging thing I've ever done, and that's one of the things that I like about it. I had no delusions that it would be easy to learn to play. What I'm finding most difficult to accept is not having a defined goal.

Some people might strive to play their favorite song, or imitate a Jaco tune, but my goal is much broader. I just wanna play. I wanna play anything. If someone hums a tune, I want to grab my bass and play along. My musical tastes are so varied that I would never pigeon hole myself by saying I'm a rock player, a blues player, a jazz player, etc. I want to be a musician. Country, bluegrass, jazz, blues, reggae, rock....whatever....bring it on.

Because of this, I feel like I need to learn more than just how to play. I need to learn music. I hear people talking about different styles of playing and I have no idea what they mean. Each genre seems to be subdivided into smaller segments which have "rules" that if violated can lead to violent throwing of cymbals and such. How do you learn these rules?? I don't need to be decapitated by any cymbals.

I only know two different kinds of music. Good music, and bad music. I like good music. I can't tell you what makes jazz different than rock. If it's a good song, it's a good song. I also can't tell you what makes a song good, but I know it when I hear it. I'm not talking about a song that's difficult to play. Good music can be simple and easy to play. Just because it's difficult to play, doesn't make it good music.

Learning scales, modes, chords, and playing exercises is just a time thing. Practice will solve any issues I have with these. But knowing when to apply them is the key. There is an old saying, "A weapon unused is a useless weapon" and that's true. I might have all the playing ability in the world, but without knowledge of how to apply it, what good is it?

Walking lines, arpeggios, voice leading, turnarounds.....might as well be speaking greek. I actually believe the mode names ARE greek. I'll have a mixolydian gyro sandwich and some ionian hummus please. :D
 
I'm going to attempt to put aside some time in the next couple of days and post a rudimentary "TAB-B-GONE" bass lesson here. Stay tuned....
one thing that i find that can make tab useful is to transcribe it to dots....if you are somewhere that the instrument is not available...

have you ever run across chuck rainey's method....it has a lot of good reading exercises that appear designed to force you to concentrate on the notes on the page and less on muscle memory
 
one thing that i find that can make tab useful is to transcribe it to dots....if you are somewhere that the instrument is not available...

have you ever run across chuck rainey's method....it has a lot of good reading exercises that appear designed to force you to concentrate on the notes on the page and less on muscle memory

I'm doing my best to avoid tab. Sadly, as mentioned above, in a performance setting, you don't see much notation. At my church we use the Nashville Number System. They will sometimes post the music for the singers, but I mostly learn my parts from listening to the song.
 
one thing that i find that can make tab useful is to transcribe it to dots....if you are somewhere that the instrument is not available...

have you ever run across chuck rainey's method....it has a lot of good reading exercises that appear designed to force you to concentrate on the notes on the page and less on muscle memory

Vol 1 of Chuck's method does indeed do that. I used to use it and found the exercises were a little "dry" for some students-but it's not bad.
 
Guys and gals, I just found a pretty cool site that has the chord charts for all of the standards, that will automatically transpose, and play through them with a virtual "piano":
http://www.8notes.com/

This could be a very cool tool for the chord tone studies!

Fellow TBer Phil Smith has a great resource as well at
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Roy, what you said about some method books being like diet/fitness/financial advice books rings very true. I hauled out some books last night that had been gathering dust and wondered why on earth I neglected them.

One was Ed Friedland's introduction to jazz improvisation which has some nice tracks to go with the number charts and notation.

The other one is Rich Appleman's "sight reading for modern electric bass" which though not a concise book on reading, focuses on rhythms and syncopation. A very nice supplement to be used in conjunction with more harmonically informative reading material.
 
There's all sorts of options-working diatonic chords all over the board, working cycle of 4ths progressions, reading Classical Music like the Bach Cello Suites and finding more than one place to play them. If you have The Improvisor's Bass Method you can use the first 3 or 4 Chapters and make great strides.
"Mastering" anything is a tricky term-when do you consider it mastered? I don't think it's as much a destination as a journey, myself. (Wow, Zen Bass....;))

Thank you for the suggestions! Not long after I posted my question, I realized that there is really no end point. You are so right, Roy-it is a journey that never ends..........


A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste! :cool:
 
I'm doing my best to avoid tab. Sadly, as mentioned above, in a performance setting, you don't see much notation. At my church we use the Nashville Number System. They will sometimes post the music for the singers, but I mostly learn my parts from listening to the song.
i don't use it for practice either.......but converting tab from used geetar rags into dots is a really economical way to acquire practice material and build transcribing skills
 
The way I visualize this process is that it's like the flow of information in your brain related to that specific thing gets jammed up, and the harder you push, the more jammed up it gets. Letting go of it and moving on to something else lets the data congestion work itself loose, then when you go back to it, things flow freely and real development takes place. That's why I think it is important for a practice regiment to have enough diversity in it so that, when the data jam sets in, you can walk away from that specific part and do other things while it works itself out. The important thing is that all of the aspects of the practice regime have real musical content and worth, so you're never wasting time.

Well said! The same thing always seems to happen to me too. There are periods of accelerated growth followed by "rut periods." Having played bass for over half of my life, I've often analyzed how the brain works. I think it is reflective of the "learning process" in general. But music is a discipline which can give us a lot of insight into this process.

I love those "accelerated growth periods." I feel that I'm currently on one of these, and the JB thread (and now this one) has definitely played a large part in this!

I think having a GOOD teacher would be instrumental for being able to maintain this state of mind (on a 24/7 basis!!!). I've been meaning to find a good teacher. I'd like to seek out a non-bass teacher (either piano, or a horn player) to study with because I am after musical information and not just bass. Of course, if I could find a bass teacher who is proficient, that could be ideal. But bass players like JB don't grow on trees. :D
 
On this note of hitting a wall...

A few weeks ago I began stumbling in the progession thru my "MI reading for bass players" book. I was sailing through the book until I hit the 16th note rhythm section. For some reason I just could not get my mind around making sense of those pesky 16th note rhythm variations.

I didn't even look at that stuff again until today- I just reviewed the previous chapters and stuck to reading simple music with nothing more difficult than 8th notes. But today I broke down 16th note rhythms using the basic counting techniques and BAM! I got it! Now I still trip up on the stuff, but at this point in the book study I am only playing single notes- while concentrating on the rhythms only, which literally change every single measure to some other 16th note rhythm. The break through came when I realized the tricky 16th note rhythms (with 16th rests, 8th rests, dotted rests and 8ths) were things I have been doing for years. Once I really recognized them it became much easier. I now see how playing these complex rhythm variations can be handled in a reasonable manner.

As Roy had said- a lot of it is recognizing patterns. Now that I have experienced that for myself, I am not as overwhelmed about the complex stuff that is coming my way as I get better at this reading. It becomes closer to reading words, not just looking at each letter and decoding it on its own. I imagine this eventually turns into reading entire phrases at once.