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Same pattern repeated half a tone lower - good idea in a song? How to make it work?

T

Tomek Worek

Sep 8, 2016
31
27
#1
Hi there, so i'm a writing a new song for my band (on bass). I've written the chorus part (which kinda outlines a chord progression) and had this idea to instead of playing it twice, play it once in its original form, and right after that play it a half-tone lower. It sounds pretty cool to me, and the keys/chords match up good enough for it to work tonally, but i'm not so sure if its going to really work as a actual song (as in with more instruments)
Will it sound interesting and progressive, or just a little off and confusing? Is it something vocalists (generally speaking) can have problems with? Does this kind of stuff happen often in popular music?
I know my description is pretty vague and there is only so much you can do without actually hearing the part, but I do intend to try it with the band (yes I already know I should "trust my ears" :laugh:). So I'm mostly hoping for some general advice (EDIT: meaning information) on that kind of a part (how to make it work, what to look out for) from someone with more song - writing experience and skill. Even if it won't apply here I'm happy to learn. Peace :)
 
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#6
Lenny JG said:
My advice is to use your ears, if it doesn't sound good, it doesn't work.
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Can you read the last paragraph of my original post (since reading it whole is too much) and tell me your advice isn't a little garbage? Thanks anyway :)

Wood and Wire said:
On paper, this sounds like the reverse of that old cliche, when the songwriter has run out of ideas; throw in a key change (usually playing the next verse / repeating the chorus a semi-tone higher).

But in all honesty, you're only going to know for sure if you try it.
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Yep that's true, but while going "up" usually adds more tension and urgency, I'm not rly sure how to describe going down. But yeah solid point, maybe I'll check out some of the songs written like that for inspiration
I will try it out when I meet the rest of the band :D
 
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#8
Perhaps if the mood of the song is melancholy, moving a pattern a half step down would convey the right sentiment. It seems that the lyrics/mood need to match the music more than moving up a half step, which to me can be utilized in a wider variety of circumstances.
 
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#10
Wood and Wire said:
On paper, this sounds like the reverse of that old cliche, when the songwriter has run out of ideas; throw in a key change
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Back in the late 70's / early 80's I knew a guy who played solo gigs on the same circuit as me and my friends. Now and then he'd ask me to sit in with him, and his key to building excitement was to modulate up a half step toward the end. Every single song. I can still hear him yelling "modulate! modulate!" in the middle of a song.
 
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#13
I have always felt 1/2 step up modulation as a cheap tired trick to (attempt) creating sime excitement in a tune. Doing that several times in a row, or for every song, would be just unbearable.

I am not sure about whether the opposite (1/2 step down modulation) will sound much more interesting. But, as many already pointed out, you ears (and your musical taste) will tell you, just as it will tell your band mates and your audience.
 
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#15
james condino said:
Miles spent half his career modulating up for 8 bars and then back down. I don't see it as a gimmick; more of another useful composing tool.
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Sure, you are right about "So What", but Miles had so many different ways of creating tension and interest in his playing. He could make "twinkle twinkle" sound amazing...

My comment was about this post:
LBS-bass said:
Back in the late 70's / early 80's I knew a guy who played solo gigs on the same circuit as me and my friends. Now and then he'd ask me to sit in with him, and his key to building excitement was to modulate up a half step toward the end. Every single song. I can still hear him yelling "modulate! modulate!" in the middle of a song.
Click to expand...
Doing this in every single song suggests some rather unimaginative playing (kind of one-trick poney).
 
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#16
Tomek Worek said:
Hi there, so i'm a writing a new song for my band (on bass). I've written the chorus part (which kinda outlines a chord progression) and had this idea to instead of playing it twice, play it once in its original form, and right after that play it a half-tone lower. It sounds pretty cool to me, and the keys/chords match up good enough for it to work tonally, but i'm not so sure if its going to really work as a actual song (as in with more instruments)
Will it sound interesting and progressive, or just a little off and confusing? Is it something vocalists (generally speaking) can have problems with? Does this kind of stuff happen often in popular music?
I know my description is pretty vague and there is only so much you can do without actually hearing the part, but I do intend to try it with the band (yes I already know I should "trust my ears" :laugh:). So I'm mostly hoping for some general advice (EDIT: meaning information) on that kind of a part (how to make it work, what to look out for) from someone with more song - writing experience and skill. Even if it won't apply here I'm happy to learn. Peace :)
Click to expand...

I can’t remember ever hearing a chorus drop down a semi-tone upon repeating in any of the hundreds of popular music songs I’ve ever learned for corporate and wedding cover gigs over the years.

So no, that kind of stuff definitely doesn’t happen often in popular music.

As far as “how to make it work”, forcing an key change is never very musical: a momentary key change a half step down, before I assume returning to the original key in the verse, is something most vocalists will definitely have a problem with.

It’s worth trying something new, so don’t throw it out without actually giving it a shot with the band, but it’s never worth doing something new that doesn’t sound musical just for the sake of being “unique” or “progressive”.
 
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#19
Tomek Worek said:
Yeah, as I said in that post you missed I already know that. It has potential and I intend to make it good, that's why I asked for actual advice, not cliches ;)
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Ok, the answer is it depends on how you do this, what else is going on, the context as a whole. This is where learning some theory might help. Example, a half step shift like you are talking about takes it from one tonal area (key) to about the farthest tonal area away, quite jarringly. This kind of thing is usually avoided in music composition because it's not smooth and sounds bad. But there are ways to make it sound good, if used sparingly. Your job is to figure that out.
 
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#20
This is way out of my grasp of theory at the moment, but watching Janek Gwizdala’s practices I’ve made a mental note to check out Neopolitan chords. Db major against Cm (or is that Cmaj7?) for example? Again I don’t have a handle on how it works just yet, but your post reminded of that and I was wondering if, as you modulate down, you might use the neopolitan triad to maintain the melodic theme after the demodulation?

Possibly someone with more theory could riff on that idea in a way that it becomes useful! Good luck!
 
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