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Same pattern repeated half a tone lower - good idea in a song? How to make it work?

#21
Tomek Worek said:
Is it something vocalists (generally speaking) can have problems with?
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In my experience, they are usually capable of learning it.

You might try to use this problem creatively, eg. say the last chorus chord is C and first verse chord is B. If the singer sings A (6th) as the last chorus tone, he can still keep the same tone on beginning of the verse, where it changes to flat 7th. You get change of mood while keeping the same tone. This will work with another tones similarly (3rd going to 4th, 1st (C) going to flat 9th, 5th going to flat 6th etc.) and way more interesting options appear when you start thinking about two tones in a melody. With overlaps like this, be it voice or instruments, you can perhaps avoid the cliche of going a step down, which might be felt by the audience as dropping the power.
 
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#23
I have done this a couple of times.
BUT it works depending on how the other instruments are layered into the mix.
You really do have to listen and see if the music has a good flow to it.
Sometimes it works and sometimes it don't. Now if you could record a demo of you doing it with a keys or guitars enough to get the other guys the idea then try it.
Good luck on the song.
 
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#24
Tomek Worek said:
Hi there, so i'm a writing a new song for my band (on bass). I've written the chorus part (which kinda outlines a chord progression) and had this idea to instead of playing it twice, play it once in its original form, and right after that play it a half-tone lower. It sounds pretty cool to me, and the keys/chords match up good enough for it to work tonally, but i'm not so sure if its going to really work as a actual song (as in with more instruments)
Will it sound interesting and progressive, or just a little off and confusing? Is it something vocalists (generally speaking) can have problems with? Does this kind of stuff happen often in popular music?
I know my description is pretty vague and there is only so much you can do without actually hearing the part, but I do intend to try it with the band (yes I already know I should "trust my ears" :laugh:). So I'm mostly hoping for some general advice (EDIT: meaning information) on that kind of a part (how to make it work, what to look out for) from someone with more song - writing experience and skill. Even if it won't apply here I'm happy to learn. Peace :)
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I can hear what you’re trying to do. I’d repeat it UP a half or whole step then come back down. It’ll almost feel like a key change… like you gave it to the audience then took it away.

It’s a cool concept that could probably work well on the right song.
 
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#25
Does it fit the lyric? say your song is about an event, then the last verse halfstepdown sums up a conclusion, a reverie, maybe a comment on it. There is no reason it wouldn't work musically as long as lessening tension isn't absurd. In conversation there is often a final resting comment and that works in music too.
btw, modulation in Broadway show tunes is a must for the drama. LOTS of "show stoppers" do it. (to break my "rule" above...downward modulation can be a tension increase too, but that's music, and no one has any idea what your song sounds like)
Sorry if there is no lyric yet, didn't mean to offend...that would make my comment 1/2 garbage. In the bin with it where most ideas go
 
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#26
Most previous posts seem to be assuming modulation. It reads to me like you're going to play the "half-step lower" line against the same chords as the first pass. I doubt that will sound good. It may be "interesting", but that's not necessarily good.

From a theory perspective, unless you original chords are major 7ths, the half step fits nowhere in your tonal map. They would be used as passing tones at best - not full phrases of them.

From an ":ear" perspective, if you're down in the low end of the spectrum, it might not even be especially noticeable and would likely create discomfort to the ear if anything at all. (I can't count the number of times I've played half a song a half-step off and barely notice it myself.)

The only way you'll know for sure is to try it, but expect your makes to give you the stink eye - if they notice at all. Highly unlikely you'll get the response I suspect you want.
 
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#27
bassslinger tomek,

I think of an old flamenco motif w/the half-step move but also this urinals' tune:



talk about econo - love it!

on bass, watt

mike watt's hoot page

  • Tomek Worek said:
    Hi there, so i'm a writing a new song for my band (on bass). I've written the chorus part (which kinda outlines a chord progression) and had this idea to instead of playing it twice, play it once in its original form, and right after that play it a half-tone lower. It sounds pretty cool to me, and the keys/chords match up good enough for it to work tonally, but i'm not so sure if its going to really work as a actual song (as in with more instruments)
    Click to expand...
Tomek Worek said:
Will it sound interesting and progressive, or just a little off and confusing? Is it something vocalists (generally speaking) can have problems with? Does this kind of stuff happen often in popular music?
I know my description is pretty vague and there is only so much you can do without actually hearing the part, but I do intend to try it with the band (yes I already know I should "trust my ears" :laugh:). So I'm mostly hoping for some general advice (EDIT: meaning information) on that kind of a part (how to make it work, what to look out for) from someone with more song - writing experience and skill. Even if it won't apply here I'm happy to learn. Peace :)
Click to expand...
 
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#30
I want to comment on the "can the singer handle it" part:

I know you asked for generalities, but that's a hard call (as are all generalizations).

Any decent (not even good) singer should be able to handle a change like that as long as the song is in an appropriate key for them to begin with.

I'm not a good singer and I don't have perfect pitch. I do have relative pitch and as long as a song isn't way outside of my range, I could handle something like that.

As far as the change, musically: While it's become something of a bone of contention, I have to echo (and then add to) something previously said ...

When you're writing a song, it has to please your ear, first.

That said, I have a suggestion which might be helpful:

Record a quick scratch track/acetate and do whatever it is you do to copyright/protect it and then, let as many people listen to it as possible. Heck, post it to your friends on Fakebook or whatever you use for social media.

That should give you some kind of idea of whether or not your work will have some mass appeal.

Good luck.
 
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#32
Could def sound good. Someone above said "reverse of the old cliche" but I think that's a silly sentiment imo. The halfstep up / chorus thing is old, but it continues to happen in (mostly pop, but not always) songs because it's cool and lifts things up a bit. I don't see why it couldn't work in reverse to bring it down and make it moody.

Your singer will figure it out (or at least should be able to, so long as their range works with the notes).
 
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#33
Tomek Worek said:
Hi there, so i'm a writing a new song for my band (on bass). I've written the chorus part (which kinda outlines a chord progression) and had this idea to instead of playing it twice, play it once in its original form, and right after that play it a half-tone lower. It sounds pretty cool to me, and the keys/chords match up good enough for it to work tonally, but i'm not so sure if its going to really work as a actual song (as in with more instruments)
Will it sound interesting and progressive, or just a little off and confusing? Is it something vocalists (generally speaking) can have problems with? Does this kind of stuff happen often in popular music?
I know my description is pretty vague and there is only so much you can do without actually hearing the part, but I do intend to try it with the band (yes I already know I should "trust my ears" :laugh:). So I'm mostly hoping for some general advice (EDIT: meaning information) on that kind of a part (how to make it work, what to look out for) from someone with more song - writing experience and skill. Even if it won't apply here I'm happy to learn. Peace :)
Click to expand...

Side-Slipping Side-Slipping is a fantastic and really simple Jazz improvisation technique that sounds great. All it involves is playing a phrase in the diatonic scale, repeating the phrase one semitone above or below, before returning back to the diatonic scale.
 
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#35
Tomek Worek said:
Hi there, so i'm a writing a new song for my band (on bass). I've written the chorus part (which kinda outlines a chord progression) and had this idea to instead of playing it twice, play it once in its original form, and right after that play it a half-tone lower. It sounds pretty cool to me, and the keys/chords match up good enough for it to work tonally, but i'm not so sure if its going to really work as a actual song (as in with more instruments)
Will it sound interesting and progressive, or just a little off and confusing? Is it something vocalists (generally speaking) can have problems with? Does this kind of stuff happen often in popular music?
I know my description is pretty vague and there is only so much you can do without actually hearing the part, but I do intend to try it with the band (yes I already know I should "trust my ears" :laugh:). So I'm mostly hoping for some general advice (EDIT: meaning information) on that kind of a part (how to make it work, what to look out for) from someone with more song - writing experience and skill. Even if it won't apply here I'm happy to learn. Peace :)
Click to expand...

For clarity, your bassline repeats a 1/2 step down over the same chords? Or the entire chord structure modulates down? I think you mean the first one. Can you share the chord changes and some idea of what your bassline is?

There are absolutely chords that will lend well to a bassline pattern repeating a 1/2 step down...I can think of several situations where this might work really well (with some potential adjustment in the pattern depending on the key of the tune). Obvious one would be a I - V chord change with the bassline pattern starting on the root of I and then repeating the pattern starting on the third of V (1/2 step down from root of I).
 
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#36
Great example: listen to "Soul Man" by Sam & Dave and see how Duck Dunn takes it up a fret for the last verse. Yes, it's up, now down like the OP is wanting to do for his song, but figuring out a transition is the thing.
 
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#37
The problem with repetition down a half- or whole tone is that it can sound like the air went out of the balloon. Modulating a lick or other structure up feels like building excitement which is more typically where you want to go during a song. That said, if when you drop the main lick by a half tone you add some harmonic complexity up high that makes the overall feel of the song rise, that can work in interesting ways.
 
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#38
There are many songs with key changes. I don’t know your genre, but one example in jazz is “Body and Soul”. I play Billie Holliday’s version in Ab major, then shifts to A major, then to G major, then back to Ab major. Sounds really cool. Keep in mind that in jazz tunes that have key changes, usually the V7 or ii7-V7 of the next key will be used to transition to the new key….timing and keeping the change smooth are important so the change sounds natural, not “mechanical”.
 
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