Same strings different bass - stiffer feel

[MissJoanna2U]

The setting on a bass that affects the feel of string tension most is neck relief, and it doesn’t take much to make a big difference in feel. My guess is the neck relief is different on the two basses. I’d guess the relief in the Ibanez is at or slightly under .010” and the Cort is probably over .012” and that’s plenty enough to make a big difference in feel.

Edit; if you get the neck relief nearly identical on each bass, there might still be some difference in the feel of stiffness between the two. Neck profiles and differences in wood can make the max neck relief fall at a slightly different location along the length of the neck. If you use the method of holding down the E string at 1st fret & 17th fret, one bass might have max relief at the 8th fret & the other might have max relief at the 9th fret. To make the string stiffness feel the same on each, you might have to set the relief slightly different. Going by feel instead of measurement is the best way to set relief anyway.

I get your thinking but with my Ibanez and my Sire even when they were both horribly set up at times when neglected, they never felt like the Cort with medium gauge strings. Same with my Classic Vibe Jazz.

But with lighter strings it has come alive, so praise be.

 

[Turnaround]

FWIW I have not noticed this difference is in my old Sire where I top loaded and strung through. Generally strung through because it felt cooler, but deffo didn't notice and playability change (maybe sustain and punch, but probably in my head).

The change in stretchiness is miniscule to the extreme. Not surprised that you didn't notice it.

 

[newwavefrank]

Well my experience with this bass so far which is known for having a great low end is that the Highbeams 40-100 have a great punch and bottom end.

So I don't believe the guy in the video either. He's just very experienced and does pretty honest reviews.

The problem with his review is he compared apples to oranges. If you want to know how gauge affects tone, you have to compare the SAME STRING in different gauges. He just grabbed whatever he could find. For all he knows he would have hated those strings even in a heavier gauge.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

I get your thinking but with my Ibanez and my Sire even when they were both horribly set up at times when neglected, they never felt like the Cort with medium gauge strings. Same with my Classic Vibe Jazz.

But with lighter strings it has come alive, so praise be.

If you don’t already know what it is, I’d check the relief on the Cort. A few thousands of an inch can make a huge difference in the string stiffness feel on any bass. The point of max relief on a bass neck is between where the neck meets the body and the nut. Max relief is usually around half way between, but as I mentioned before, sometimes it’s not halfway, and the direction away from the halfway point makes a significant difference. That’s why some basses feel great with .012” of relief and others feel like pushing down the top wire of a 38” tall barbwire fence to do a straddle crossing….

 

[MissJoanna2U]

If you don’t already know what it is, I’d check the relief on the Cort. A few thousands of an inch can make a huge difference in the string stiffness feel on any bass. The point of max relief on a bass neck is between where the neck meets the body and the nut. Max relief is usually around half way between, but as I mentioned before, sometimes it’s not halfway, and the direction away from the halfway point makes a significant difference. That’s why some basses feel great with .012” of relief and others feel like pushing down the top wire of a 38” tall barbwire fence to do a straddle crossing….

Mmm ok I'll give it a second look for the relief.

Maybe I'll come back with some measurements.

Like I said no other bass has been good so sensitive to relief in terms of this issue, so if you are saying that some basses need a narrow sweet spot, fair enough and I'll have to look at it

 

[Dincrest]

I'm a "gotta try 'em all" (like pokemon) guy when it comes to strings, and over the decades I've come to the conclusion that (and this will sound like some Harry Potter juju) the bass does choose the strings. Sometimes a string you adore on one bass, you abhor on another because no two basses set up the same. Even if two basses were made in the same facility from woods from the same tree, they would feel, sound, and set up differently since wood is a living thing. And it's either fun or frustrating to find that set of strings that matches up where you get that visceral feeling of, "oh YEAH! That's the stuff!"

And sometimes, especially with discussions on TalkBass, we may get a little hung up on gauges and tension numbers. Those only tell part of the story. A 45-105 set of D'Addario XLs feels different from a 45-105 set of GHS Boomers. And you don't always need a bigger gauge/big fat string to get a bigger/big fat tone. I've discovered that I can get a bigger tone (notes ring out more) out of a slightly lighter gauge because I'm not mashing or clobbering a big, stiff string. When I used to play 5-string, the 118 B on LaBella Rx steels felt and sounded better than some 125 Bs I've used (130 Bs always felt and sounded too tubby for me). And I've seen cases where people bag on the stock electronics in some basses, but when they try different strings the bass sounds great and the person saved money and time/hassle ripping out the pickups/preamp. Least expensive and most noticeable mod anyone can do.

And if you find a string you like (e.g. DR Sunbeams) then, yeah, some basses seem to play nicer with different gauges than others. Hope the OP gets their bass dialed in the way they like because sometimes, yeah, getting one instrument just right on Baby Bear's level can take longer/more effort than another. Just like relationships where sometimes it needs time to grow on you.

 

[MissJoanna2U]

I'm a "gotta try 'em all" (like pokemon) guy when it comes to strings, and over the decades I've come to the conclusion that (and this will sound like some Harry Potter juju) the bass does choose the strings. Sometimes a string you adore on one bass, you abhor on another because no two basses set up the same. Even if two basses were made in the same facility from woods from the same tree, they would feel, sound, and set up differently since wood is a living thing. And it's either fun or frustrating to find that set of strings that matches up where you get that visceral feeling of, "oh YEAH! That's the stuff!"

And sometimes, especially with discussions on TalkBass, we may get a little hung up on gauges and tension numbers. Those only tell part of the story. A 45-105 set of D'Addario XLs feels different from a 45-105 set of GHS Boomers. And you don't always need a bigger gauge/big fat string to get a bigger/big fat tone. I've discovered that I can get a bigger tone (notes ring out more) out of a slightly lighter gauge because I'm not mashing or clobbering a big, stiff string. When I used to play 5-string, the 118 B on LaBella Rx steels felt and sounded better than some 125 Bs I've used (130 Bs always felt and sounded too tubby for me). And I've seen cases where people bag on the stock electronics in some basses, but when they try different strings the bass sounds great and the person saved money and time/hassle ripping out the pickups/preamp. Least expensive and most noticeable mod anyone can do.

And if you find a string you like (e.g. DR Sunbeams) then, yeah, some basses seem to play nicer with different gauges than others. Hope the OP gets their bass dialed in the way they like because sometimes, yeah, getting one instrument just right on Baby Bear's level can take longer/more effort than another. Just like relationships where sometimes it needs time to grow on you.

Great perspective. No wonder I'm single!

 

[SteveCS]

The E string is ~2.5mm from the 12th fret.

IME there isn't a string on the planet that will feel compliant with that setup. My go-to for E is 1.65mm at 12. You didn't say where the relief is set...

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Mmm ok I'll give it a second look for the relief.

Maybe I'll come back with some measurements.

Like I said no other bass has been good so sensitive to relief in terms of this issue, so if you are saying that some basses need a narrow sweet spot, fair enough and I'll have to look at it

Not exactly what I was saying, but it does apply. My point was that some basses feel stiff right up to the point they stop feeling stiff, and getting there might only take another 1/12 turn (from flat side to corner of a hex nut) of the truss rod. Some basses require slightly less relief than others to reach that point even when using the exact same strings that don’t feel stiff on another bass.

You can bet two sets of strings of the same gauge, type, & manufacturer brought up to pitch over the same scale length are going to have the same tension, so the difference in feel between two basses of the same scale length wearing the same strings is the basses, not the strings.
The difference in physical effort to press the strings down to the frets on each bass is going to be differences in the setup AND the characteristics of the basses that affect setup.

 

[Dincrest]

Great perspective. No wonder I'm single!

LOL, I too am single (and happily so) because I clearly have more patience with basses (and gear) than I do with people sometimes. I'm also "officially old", so it took me decades to get even close to any kind of perspective.

 

[MissJoanna2U]

LOL, I too am single (and happily so) because I clearly have more patience with basses (and gear) than I do with people sometimes. I'm also "officially old", so it took me decades to get even close to any kind of perspective.

Like you I have a bass family and contraception isn't an issue

 

[MissJoanna2U]

Not exactly what I was saying, but it does apply. My point was that some basses feel stiff right up to the point they stop feeling stiff, and getting there might only take another 1/12 turn (from flat side to corner of a hex nut) of the truss rod. Some basses require slightly less relief than others to reach that point even when using the exact same strings that don’t feel stiff on another bass.

You can bet two sets of strings of the same gauge, type, & manufacturer brought up to pitch over the same scale length are going to have the same tension, so the difference in feel between two basses of the same scale length wearing the same strings is the basses, not the strings.
The difference in physical effort to press the strings down to the frets on each bass is going to be differences in the setup AND the characteristics of the basses that affect setup.

Thanks I've learned a lot in this thread.

Still happy now with my light gauge with a fresh setup. It's going to be my slappy tappy double thumby bass and it can still groove down low.

Useful info for the future though.

 

[Pier_]

Someone who knows a lot more than me talked about tension Vs compliance with strings, saying that different basses do have different perceived stiffness. I don't really understand this except maybe the break angles and rigidity of construction. But the Sire was very well put together and always was a dream to play (weight aside).

as long as the setup measures are the same (same neck relief, same action, same height at the nut), the reasons why you feel different "stiffness" is because there are other things:

1) fret size: a smaller fret covers less surface when you press the string, which means that the you need more strength to keep the string pressed on the fret.

2) the neck profile: your hand use more or less strength in relation to finger's position and arch: FE I prefer chunkier necks with big profile, because slim necks don't let my hand have the "best" position it needs. that means that with slim necks I can't "express" the right amount of strength from my fingers, and it makes me feel the string stiffer.

3) the radius and neck width: it's like point 2): these factors change the arch of your fingers over the strings, and how they press them.

so different basses "feel" different even with the same strings and same setup.

one example: my Precision Classic 50, with tiny narrow frets, feels harder then a similar Precision with medium jumbo frets.
my Yamaha Attitude II, with super tall and jumbo frets, wide neck, 10" radius and enormous profile is the easiest bass I've ever played.
the necks of these two basses are similar in nut/heel width, but the other details differ, and the feeling is extremely different even if I use the same set of Rotosound BS66 with the exact same setup.

 

[SteveCS]

as long as the setup measures are the same (same neck relief, same action, same height at the nut), the reasons why you feel different "stiffness" is because there are other things:

1) fret size: a smaller fret covers less surface when you press the string, which means that the you need more strength to keep the string pressed on the fret.

2) the neck profile: your hand use more or less strength in relation to finger's position and arch: FE I prefer chunkier necks with big profile, because slim necks don't let my hand have the "best" position it needs. that means that with slim necks I can't "express" the right amount of strength from my fingers, and it makes me feel the string stiffer.

3) the radius and neck width: it's like point 2): these factors change the arch of your fingers over the strings, and how they press them.

so different basses "feel" different even with the same strings and same setup.

one example: my Precision Classic 50, with tiny narrow frets, feels harder then a similar Precision with medium jumbo frets.
my Yamaha Attitude II, with super tall and jumbo frets, wide neck, 10" radius and enormous profile is the easiest bass I've ever played.
the necks of these two basses are similar in nut/heel width, but the other details differ, and the feeling is extremely different even if I use the same set of Rotosound BS66 with the exact same setup.

You also have to consider the 'afterlenģths' - the non-speaking sections between nut/post and saddle/tailpiece. Longer afterlenģths give a more compliant feel as well as improving intonation. This is because the added tension induced by pressing the string to the fret/fingerboard is taken up by the whole string, not just the speaking portion.

 

[MissJoanna2U]

as long as the setup measures are the same (same neck relief, same action, same height at the nut), the reasons why you feel different "stiffness" is because there are other things:

1) fret size: a smaller fret covers less surface when you press the string, which means that the you need more strength to keep the string pressed on the fret.

2) the neck profile: your hand use more or less strength in relation to finger's position and arch: FE I prefer chunkier necks with big profile, because slim necks don't let my hand have the "best" position it needs. that means that with slim necks I can't "express" the right amount of strength from my fingers, and it makes me feel the string stiffer.

3) the radius and neck width: it's like point 2): these factors change the arch of your fingers over the strings, and how they press them.

so different basses "feel" different even with the same strings and same setup.

one example: my Precision Classic 50, with tiny narrow frets, feels harder then a similar Precision with medium jumbo frets.
my Yamaha Attitude II, with super tall and jumbo frets, wide neck, 10" radius and enormous profile is the easiest bass I've ever played.
the necks of these two basses are similar in nut/heel width, but the other details differ, and the feeling is extremely different even if I use the same set of Rotosound BS66 with the exact same setup.

Thanks. I have a Classic Vibe 70s Jazz bass and never had this issue. I don't know if the radius is that different to the Cort.

The Cort's radius is

Fingerboard Radius : 15.75" Nut Width : 1 1/2" Scale Length : 34"

My Sire had a thinner neck, pencil like.

My Ibanez SR has a very flat neck and that took some adjustmenting to, but now it's like butter.

I need to measure fret height on them all, but I can say that the Ibanez has very low frets and very low action, but regardless of action the tension is fine for anything medium gauage with round cores.

 

[MissJoanna2U]

You also have to consider the 'afterlenģths' - the non-speaking sections between nut/post and saddle/tailpiece. Longer afterlenģths give a more compliant feel as well as improving intonation. This is because the added tension induced by pressing the string to the fret/fingerboard is taken up by the whole string, not just the speaking portion.

This speaks to the Babicz bridge perhaps.

The nut (assuming it's the right height) to post is basically the same design as my old Sire V9 that has the same string trees.

Could the bridge which has a steep break angle and a short distance to where the strings are slotted be causing this?

Babicz are a a great brand and I have never heard anyone cite this issue with them.

 

[Pier_]

Thanks. I have a Classic Vibe 70s Jazz bass and never had this issue. I don't know if the radius is that different to the Cort.

the Cort has a flatter radius. the Classic Vibe has 9.5" radius, so the fretboard is curved.
probably they also have different frets.

You also have to consider the 'afterlenģths'

true, but IMHO not so relevant. I have, for example, a Reissue 51 Japan (string through), a Custom Shop 51 (string through) and the Classic 50 (bridge) with similar specs in the neck (radius, frets and profile), and with the same strings (Fender 9050M) the feeling is identical.

the same strings on a Stingray (10" radius, medium frets and slimmer neck), but same "break angle" after the bridge, and similar break angle at the nut/headstock fell softer and easier to play.

the action and relief are exactly the same.

 

[MissJoanna2U]

the Cort has a flatter radius. the Classic Vibe has 9.5" radius, so the fretboard is curved.
probably they also have different frets.

My Ibanez has a very flat radius that took time to get used to initially.

Very low perceived stiffness.

A good setup and the right strings are doing the trick, but neck radius doesn't explain what I feel based on my own comparisons.


true, but IMHO not so relevant. I have, for example, a Reissue 51 Japan (string through), a Custom Shop 51 (string through) and the Classic 50 (bridge) with similar specs in the neck (radius, frets and profile), and with the same strings (Fender 9050M) the feeling is identical.

the same strings on a Stingray (10" radius, medium frets and slimmer neck), but same "break angle" after the bridge, and similar break angle at the nut/headstock fell softer and easier to play.

the action and relief are exactly the same.

 

[MissJoanna2U]

the Cort has a flatter radius. the Classic Vibe has 9.5" radius, so the fretboard is curved.
probably they also have different frets.



true, but IMHO not so relevant. I have, for example, a Reissue 51 Japan (string through), a Custom Shop 51 (string through) and the Classic 50 (bridge) with similar specs in the neck (radius, frets and profile), and with the same strings (Fender 9050M) the feeling is identical.

the same strings on a Stingray (10" radius, medium frets and slimmer neck), but same "break angle" after the bridge, and similar break angle at the nut/headstock fell softer and easier to play.

the action and relief are exactly the same.

Thanks for your input on this. In terms of radius, my Ibanez SR 5 string is very flat indeed (much more so than the Cort) and has none of these issues.

 

[J-Bass RMR]

While it's not unusual for various basses to have a different "feel" with the same string - 2.5mm (>6/64) seems on the high side - especially with your condition you describe.
Is that how your other basses are set?

I sent it to a local luthier for a setup

Let's get back to the luthier;

If he just adjusted the nut, as requested, there are other factors that could prevent lower action; primarily the condition of the frets.

A qualified luthier or tech should be able to provide you with a "summary", especially if you explained your condition and objectives with the bass.

The summary might include before and after measurements of; Relief, string height and measurements relative to the nut (slot depth or string clearance at the nut) but most importantly; any condition that prevented achieving a lower / or the desired action; i.e. uneven frets.

While the nut height would be one of the 1st thing I would suspect - and the luthier may have adjusted it - the nut is just part of the set-up process.
The condition of the frets would be the 1st thing I'd check. If the frets aren't all quite level (and this isn't a-dressed) the setup might result in a slightly higher set up.