- Apr 18, 2008
- 16,019
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- 31,734
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- I'm highly opinionated and extremely self-assured
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I don't see the advantage to the dovetail shape you mentioned in method 1. It would provide resistance to the neck being pulled out toward the nut, but there's no force that's trying to do that.
With just 2mm of top wood over the tenon, is it possible that the shape of the tenon might eventually telegraph through the top?
I see what you're trying to do by extending the tenon into the top, but maybe you could accomplish the same thing with less trouble by just setting the neck 3mm deeper into the body.
Caveat: I know nothing.
With just 2mm of top wood over the tenon, is it possible that the shape of the tenon might eventually telegraph through the top?
I see what you're trying to do by extending the tenon into the top, but maybe you could accomplish the same thing with less trouble by just setting the neck 3mm deeper into the body.
Caveat: I know nothing.
That's true, pulling the neck out is not an issue. However, you cannot "twist out" a dovetail neck joint. With "twist out" I mean clamping the body down and lifting up the headstock. If unglued, the parallel neck tenon will rotate/lift out of the body easily while the dovetail will stay put. I don't know if that is an advantage, but it could be. Also the glue area is marginally larger.
Very good point. If there's a gap between the neck tenon and the top, then it would likely cave in while vacuum clamping. With a good fit I don't see how the tenon would be visible through the top, based on how stiff the 1mm headstock veneers were.
When I build mine, I went with option 2. As you noted, I used a dummy block in the neck mortise to support it while in the bag. One of the driving factors for me was the fact that I used a very thin drop top. From a strength perspective, I'm not sure that the extra meat of the dovetail joint adds a lot... I'm sure it does to some extent, but not sure that it is meaningful.
Also, mine was a Special DC, so it has a neck pickup, which removes even more material from the neck joint. I did move the pickup farther from the end of the neck to help me feel better about the structure. So far so good!
That's some good information. Great top on your special as well!I used a similar technique (top first, neck later) on the blue Billy-Bo in my avatar, but it's a flat top so I clamped it with clamps, no dummy block necessary.When I build mine, I went with option 2. As you noted, I used a dummy block in the neck mortise to support it while in the bag. One of the driving factors for me was the fact that I used a very thin drop top. From a strength perspective, I'm not sure that the extra meat of the dovetail joint adds a lot... I'm sure it does to some extent, but not sure that it is meaningful.
Also, mine was a Special DC, so it has a neck pickup, which removes even more material from the neck joint. I did move the pickup farther from the end of the neck to help me feel better about the structure. So far so good!
Is there a particular reason why you made the neck tenon so narrow? Except for historical accuracy, I suppose...
I don't recall the specific reason, but I had made 2 Les Pauls prior to this and was comfortable with that type of approach, so that's what I did... IDK, it's been a minute.
Update #12: This hardware is wearing my down - a little rant.
First off, I decided to go with option 2, the slide-in neck tenon as recommended by @Gary_M. While I'm still working on that, let's take a look at the hardware for this project.
The pickup was a pain to get in the right configuration. I wanted a Lindy Fralin hum-cancelling 5% overwound P90 soapbar with a nickel cover. Since international shipping is 50$ for a single pickup when ordering from Fralin directly, I decided to go with a retailer in the Netherlands who assured me this particular pickup is in stock. However, what I received was a dogear pickup with a cream dogear cover
. After tedious emails and receiving 3-word replies from the seller I decided to keep the pickup, because I wasn't sure I'd get my money back and the magnets and coils are basically correct.
I found a seller of polished nickel P90 covers in Germany and ordered one for my pickup. Did I get the right one this time? Of course not. I received some "ultra heavy aged" cover, no idea what the plating was originally. At least this time the seller conceded the error and sent a replacement, it was finally the correct one!
Here's the pickup modification timeline with all the covers on the left, the trimmed baseplate (to fit into the soapbar cover) and the finished pickup on the right. I had to drill out the mounting screw holes a little, but it was mostly wax.
And here's the rest of the hardware, all nickel:
Left to right:ABM adjustable wraparound bridge, 22nF 600V capacitor, the aforementioned pickup, Kluson LPJ-style tuners, a double-contact output jack, two Schaller Frustum knobs, two 500K CTS allparts log pots, and a pair of Schaller S-lock strap buttons.
Of course the knobs don't fit on the pots, it's the old 6mm vs 1/4" problem
. Maybe I'll try to drill them out to 1/4".
First off, I decided to go with option 2, the slide-in neck tenon as recommended by @Gary_M. While I'm still working on that, let's take a look at the hardware for this project.
The pickup was a pain to get in the right configuration. I wanted a Lindy Fralin hum-cancelling 5% overwound P90 soapbar with a nickel cover. Since international shipping is 50$ for a single pickup when ordering from Fralin directly, I decided to go with a retailer in the Netherlands who assured me this particular pickup is in stock. However, what I received was a dogear pickup with a cream dogear cover
. After tedious emails and receiving 3-word replies from the seller I decided to keep the pickup, because I wasn't sure I'd get my money back and the magnets and coils are basically correct.I found a seller of polished nickel P90 covers in Germany and ordered one for my pickup. Did I get the right one this time? Of course not. I received some "ultra heavy aged" cover, no idea what the plating was originally. At least this time the seller conceded the error and sent a replacement, it was finally the correct one!
Here's the pickup modification timeline with all the covers on the left, the trimmed baseplate (to fit into the soapbar cover) and the finished pickup on the right. I had to drill out the mounting screw holes a little, but it was mostly wax.
And here's the rest of the hardware, all nickel:
Of course the knobs don't fit on the pots, it's the old 6mm vs 1/4" problem
. Maybe I'll try to drill them out to 1/4".
It's family holiday time, so no real update this week. To keep you entertained I've dug up a few pictures of the "original" LPJrDC build. Back then I didn't have a build thread for it and didn't take many pictures, but I found a few at least.
It's a solid 2pc black limba body, mahogany neck with scarf joint, wenge fretboard, maple-wenge veneer binding on the headstock. Lollar P90 dogear pickup, volume and tone contorl, b-w-b pickguard, ABM modern wraparound non-adjustable bridge.
It's a solid 2pc black limba body, mahogany neck with scarf joint, wenge fretboard, maple-wenge veneer binding on the headstock. Lollar P90 dogear pickup, volume and tone contorl, b-w-b pickguard, ABM modern wraparound non-adjustable bridge.
Update #13: Preparation for the big day.
Top glue-up day, that is. Back from holiday I could squeeze in some woodworking time before going back to work. I squared up the neck tenon, made a template and routed the pocket, made a cutout into the top to fit the fretboard end and made the "dummy block" which goes into the neck pocket during vacuum to support the top and keep glue out of the pocket.
I was lazy and decided to trim the tenon flush with the body without a recess in the top. It's gonna be fine.
The dummy block is made out of some birch plywood scraps and includes a "dummy fretboard end" that helps aligning the top. The block will be wrapped in saran wrap so that I can get it back out
. Hopefully...
Just as a teaser I took a photo with the neck and top temporarily attached. It will be sleeker once the top is glued and trimmed.
Glue-up day is tomorrow. I'll use epoxy and keep it in vacuum for 24h. I'll keep you posted, stay tuned.
Top glue-up day, that is. Back from holiday I could squeeze in some woodworking time before going back to work. I squared up the neck tenon, made a template and routed the pocket, made a cutout into the top to fit the fretboard end and made the "dummy block" which goes into the neck pocket during vacuum to support the top and keep glue out of the pocket.
I was lazy and decided to trim the tenon flush with the body without a recess in the top. It's gonna be fine.
The dummy block is made out of some birch plywood scraps and includes a "dummy fretboard end" that helps aligning the top. The block will be wrapped in saran wrap so that I can get it back out
. Hopefully...Just as a teaser I took a photo with the neck and top temporarily attached. It will be sleeker once the top is glued and trimmed.
Glue-up day is tomorrow. I'll use epoxy and keep it in vacuum for 24h. I'll keep you posted, stay tuned.
Update #14: The good, the gap, and the ugly
The top is glued on. For the most part I'm happy with it, but there's a few minor flaws.
The good: It's glued on, looks good, well aligned and the neck pocket is mostly free of epoxy. I cleaned it up, routed the top flush with the body and gave it a 1/8" roundover. I'm particularly happy about the veneer contrast at the maple strip endgrain:
The gap: There's a small gap between body and top at the lowest part of the arm contour, up to 0.5mm. In some areas it's filled with epoxy, others have a little gap. It's not very obvious and after filling it with some more epoxy it should be acceptable. In some areas it's between the maple veneer and the top (middle image), in some it's between the veneer and the top (right). I'll keep the roundover small so that the gap remains on the side of the body. Possible reasons are:
-not enough pressure (unlikely, I had 0.2 bar in the bag and no air pockets)
-not enough leverage. Having a larger overhang over the edge could have helped closing the gap. My piece was just wide enough to begin with.
-a piece of vacuum bag plastic could have been sucked between the body and top, forcing a gap (too late to check now)
-the top was simply too stiff.
Anyways, here it is. It's not too bad, right?
The ugly: There were some other inconveniences, but they don't compromise the result.
First off, the fan of my vacuum pump shed most of its blades when I started the pump. It's a very old pump. The epoxy was already applied, so the pump had to make it through. Luckily it worked okay. The top also started to crack under vacuum. I added a clamp on the side to close it up, but there were also a few more tiny surface cracks running along the innermost relief cut, leaving a little ridge. I sanded it smooth and filled it with superglue and dust. With the dark ziricote streaks it's now invisible. I also used wayyy too much epoxy, and I paid for it by sanding it away all afternoon.
Bottom line: It's all okay, but this particularly dense and brittle piece of ziricote was not a good choice for bending. Next time I'll try something more forgiving, like wenge
. Oh, wait...
The top is glued on. For the most part I'm happy with it, but there's a few minor flaws.
The good: It's glued on, looks good, well aligned and the neck pocket is mostly free of epoxy. I cleaned it up, routed the top flush with the body and gave it a 1/8" roundover. I'm particularly happy about the veneer contrast at the maple strip endgrain:
The gap: There's a small gap between body and top at the lowest part of the arm contour, up to 0.5mm. In some areas it's filled with epoxy, others have a little gap. It's not very obvious and after filling it with some more epoxy it should be acceptable. In some areas it's between the maple veneer and the top (middle image), in some it's between the veneer and the top (right). I'll keep the roundover small so that the gap remains on the side of the body. Possible reasons are:
-not enough pressure (unlikely, I had 0.2 bar in the bag and no air pockets)
-not enough leverage. Having a larger overhang over the edge could have helped closing the gap. My piece was just wide enough to begin with.
-a piece of vacuum bag plastic could have been sucked between the body and top, forcing a gap (too late to check now)
-the top was simply too stiff.
Anyways, here it is. It's not too bad, right?
The ugly: There were some other inconveniences, but they don't compromise the result.
First off, the fan of my vacuum pump shed most of its blades when I started the pump. It's a very old pump. The epoxy was already applied, so the pump had to make it through. Luckily it worked okay. The top also started to crack under vacuum. I added a clamp on the side to close it up, but there were also a few more tiny surface cracks running along the innermost relief cut, leaving a little ridge. I sanded it smooth and filled it with superglue and dust. With the dark ziricote streaks it's now invisible. I also used wayyy too much epoxy, and I paid for it by sanding it away all afternoon.
Bottom line: It's all okay, but this particularly dense and brittle piece of ziricote was not a good choice for bending. Next time I'll try something more forgiving, like wenge
. Oh, wait...
Update #14: The good, the gap, and the ugly
The top is glued on. For the most part I'm happy with it, but there's a few minor flaws.
The good: It's glued on, looks good, well aligned and the neck pocket is mostly free of epoxy. I cleaned it up, routed the top flush with the body and gave it a 1/8" roundover. I'm particularly happy about the veneer contrast at the maple strip endgrain:
View attachment 4769538
The gap: There's a small gap between body and top at the lowest part of the arm contour, up to 0.5mm. In some areas it's filled with epoxy, others have a little gap. It's not very obvious and after filling it with some more epoxy it should be acceptable. In some areas it's between the maple veneer and the top (middle image), in some it's between the veneer and the top (right). I'll keep the roundover small so that the gap remains on the side of the body. Possible reasons are:
-not enough pressure (unlikely, I had 0.2 bar in the bag and no air pockets)
-not enough leverage. Having a larger overhang over the edge could have helped closing the gap. My piece was just wide enough to begin with.
-a piece of vacuum bag plastic could have been sucked between the body and top, forcing a gap (too late to check now)
-the top was simply too stiff.
Anyways, here it is. It's not too bad, right?
View attachment 4769539
The ugly: There were some other inconveniences, but they don't compromise the result.
First off, the fan of my vacuum pump shed most of its blades when I started the pump. It's a very old pump. The epoxy was already applied, so the pump had to make it through. Luckily it worked okay. The top also started to crack under vacuum. I added a clamp on the side to close it up, but there were also a few more tiny surface cracks running along the innermost relief cut, leaving a little ridge. I sanded it smooth and filled it with superglue and dust. With the dark ziricote streaks it's now invisible. I also used wayyy too much epoxy, and I paid for it by sanding it away all afternoon.
View attachment 4769537
Bottom line: It's all okay, but this particularly dense and brittle piece of ziricote was not a good choice for bending. Next time I'll try something more forgiving, like wenge
Yeah that stuff is tough to bend. You did great!
Thanks, mate! I have no idea how you managed to bend your strat top so much, but you have my utmost respect. Ziricote is not for the faint of heart.Yeah that stuff is tough to bend. You did great!
I'm guessing that separation looks much worse in the pics than in person.
I'll bet it will fill with a little sealer and whatever topcoat.
I'll bet it will fill with a little sealer and whatever topcoat.
Yeah, at the moment it is quite visible because some of it is filled with epoxy and some of it isn't. Once it's all filled and sanded smooth I'm pretty sure it will look okay.
Talking about filler and topcoat brings me to another question for those experienced with epoxy: I have removed the epoxy residue, but there's still a darker shadow where the epoxy has sunk into the grain, especially the endgrain. Does this disappear with the birchwood casey grain filler/tru oil or do I have to sand it all the way before applying anything? I'd try it out quickly, but I ran out of filler last week, hence the question.
I think you mentioned the secret in an earlier post; leaving a lot of overhang so that there is more leverage to pull it around the bend. I didn't have a lot of overhang, but I had a little. What may have helped in my case was that I really soaked the top side with hot water before it went in the bag.
Update #15: contours
Not a major update, just some work on the back of the body. Despite the small 1/8" roundover on the front I wanted to give it a large roundover on the back, so I went with 1/2". I also made a belly cut, about the same depth as the forearm contour. Now it's Les Paul in the front, Strat in the back.
Not a major update, just some work on the back of the body. Despite the small 1/8" roundover on the front I wanted to give it a large roundover on the back, so I went with 1/2". I also made a belly cut, about the same depth as the forearm contour. Now it's Les Paul in the front, Strat in the back.
- Apr 18, 2008
- 16,019
- 1
- 31,734
- Disclosures
- I'm highly opinionated and extremely self-assured
this makes me slightly uncomfortable
