Scale degree number when the root is not the lowest note.....

[Groove Master]

(I really like your new "GM" signature, just be careful about any copyright lawsuits from GM as General Motors.)

This is how I understood Malcolm's question.
There are some notes - B, B, F. F#, F#, A# The F, F# and A# - written by using NORMAL NOTATION; therefore, Malcolm sees that those notes are lower than the root note B.
Malcolm uses his favorite "simplified" way notating bass notes - R-R-b5-5-5-7.
Now, he wants to convert the regular notation into his "simplified" R-5 - etc..., which means this:
Malcolm sees that the first note, B, as the note played on the 2nd fret of the A string.
Next note - F is notated as the note played on the 1st fret of the E string, not as the note played on the 3rd fret on the D string, etc...
He wants to know how to SHOW that note "location" (without the regular notation) but by using his Simplified R - 5 - etc... writing bass-line notation.
Let's say.
(R (2) - 5(1) - 6(1) - R(2) - 3(2) - 4(2) - 5(2) - 6(2) - R(3) - etc...

Hey thanks whousedtoplay.

I didn't mention it the other way because i thought it was obvious but, it would be the same thing as standard notation: B-F-F#-F-B could be notated as R-#4-5-b5-R

 

[Groove Master]

Yeah, I was thinking this was more inline with what Malcolm was asking...

That's one way, or you could always refer to keyboard style notes like "B3 - F#2" etc. However, if you want to do it with scale degrees, you could do something like "I - V(D)". "(D)" equals decending, "(A)" would be ascending... I don't know what you would do to specify which root octave you play (B3 or B4, etc) though.

Like I mentioned before the octaves doesn't affect the scale's position. Your idea for mentioning the octave is great when working with MIDI tough.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I must be missing something, here.

F#dim7 would consist of F#, A, C, and E, no? No flats in that.

I think you got confused with the F#7b5 chord. I've fought a big battle at TB in that thread.

 

[Mushroo]

I must be missing something, here.

F#dim7 would consist of F#, A, C, and E, no? No flats in that.

F#dim7 has an Eb in it.

Could you elaborate more about that A# and that confusing "Flat root" from Malcolm's Bm7 ; otherwise, I got confused?

There is no Bb or B# in a Bmin7 chord. I don't think it's that confusing.

Next, Malcolm wants to play the note E and has a question how to make sure that everybody understands that E must be played as an Open E not as 2nd fret on D or 7th fret on A, or 12th fret on E.

Everyone will know it's intended to be low E if you write it one ledger line below the staff. (Assuming bass clef.)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

F#dim7 has an Eb in it.



There is no Bb or B# in a Bmin7 chord. I don't think it's that confusing.

But my question was about that A#.
It's from your comment,
"...in the key of B we always write A# because it is the natural 7th of the scale."

 

[Groove Master]

Correct; it's considered bad writing to mix sharps and flats. If your key is sharp, stick with sharps.

WRONG. To prove you wrong is the key of Gmin where you have 2 flats and have to write a F# to the seventh of the harmonic minor scale which is the relative of Bb Major.

The reason for using sharps and flats mixed in a key is to:
1) avoid the unnecessary usage of the natural symbol for every diatonic that have been altered in the bar which complicates visual for nothing. ( I cannot find this symbol on my keyboard computer,anyone?)

2) It does help identify the direction of the line but flatten a descending line and sharping a upward line. These apply to passing tone,chromatic tone etc...

 

[Mushroo]

But my question was about that A#.
It's from your comment,
"...in the key of B we always write A# because it is the natural 7th of the scale."

I don't see the confusion so maybe the ball is in your court to explain why you think Bb is clearer?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I don't see the confusion so maybe the ball is in your court to explain why you think Bb is clearer?

"B minor is a minor scale consisting of the pitches B, C♯, D, E, F♯, G, and A. Its key signature consists of two sharps. The harmonic minor raises the note A to A♯", but
Melodic minor scale
(while the descending is)
1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7 8.

Anyway, I prefer consistency. Up = #, down - b.

 

[Groove Master]

I don't see the confusion so maybe the ball is in your court to explain why you think Bb is clearer?

The thing here is that we are talking about a Blues song which is a different beast then classical harmony. I am not sure that the minor harmonic scale has been ever played in an old Blues tune I'm just kiddin' but I think you'll get the point. The A# over a Bm7 is a passing tone to approach the root or chord tone, just like the F or even better the E# is the approaching note to F#. But it is accepted to used the F because it is easier to read. Ask any professional copyists or arranger and they will have to think twice before writing F or E# in this context. You can actually see both versions on a pro chart.

 

[Mushroo]

"B minor is a minor scale consisting of the pitches B, C♯, D, E, F♯, G, and A. Its key signature consists of two sharps. The harmonic minor raises the note A to A♯", but
Melodic minor scale
(while the descending is)
1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7 8.

Anyway, I prefer consistency. Up = #, down - b.

So you would also write A# then?

 

[Mushroo]

The thing here is that we are talking about a Blues song which is a different beast then classical harmony. I am not sure that the minor harmonic scale has been ever played in an old Blues tune I'm just kiddin' but I think you'll get the point. The A# over a Bm7 is a passing tone to approach the root or chord tone, just like the F or even better the E# is the approaching note to F#. But it is accepted to used the F because it is easier to read. Ask any professional copyists or arranger and they will have to think twice before writing F or E# in this context. You can actually see both versions on a pro chart.

Since you are "just kidding" I won't bother with a lengthy reply. I am a professional copyist and arranger, and I wrote a book on the blues. A# is an incredibly common note to find in a composition in the key of B minor. If you have ever taken music 101 then you know what function A# serves in the key of B. Bb? Not so much. This is not some crazy fringe case musical theory I am trying to share here. I am surprised my comment was in the least controversial, but that's talkbass.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So you would also write A# then?

If I were to play the note B in the Bm7 chord as the root on either the 2nd fret on the A string or on the 7th fret of the E string, then I would mark it as R(1).
Next, if I needed to play the note Bb or A# going down, I would mark that Bb due to the movement down, but...
If I were to write a chord B minor (major7)/Bm(maj7), I would use A#, because it's a still/frozen chord note.

 

[Ewo]

F#dim7 has an Eb in it.

Ah! Got it. Thanks. Confused it with the half-diminished (min7b5).

 

[Ewo]

So you would also write A# then?

In B minor, yeah. A# is the leading tone (7th scale degree), and appears in the harmonic minor (ascending or descending), and in the ascending melodic minor. That's how I was taught, anyway.

Wouldn't notate that pitch (in B minor) as Bb, because each scale degree has a unique letter name.

I get it, though, that in writing charts one might prioritize ease of reading over the strict theoretical name. Like, in C# major, a line might be easier to read if the leading tone was written as C rather than B#.

But if I was writing out a scale by way of explanation of (say) the key center of a chord progression, I would observe the convention that each scale degree goes by a different letter, the accidentals being whatever they need to be.

 

[Mushroo]

If I were to play the note B in the Bm7 chord as the root on either the 2nd fret on the A string or on the 7th fret of the E string, then I would mark it as R(1).
Next, if I needed to play the note Bb or A# going down, I would mark that Bb due to the movement down, but...
If I were to write a chord B minor (major7)/Bm(maj7), I would use A#, because it's a still/frozen chord note.

I was talking about Malcolm's example specifically, pretty sure BB King did NOT mean to imply B Minor (Major 7), at least that is not how my ear heard it. Is that what it sounds like to you?

I guess there are more people out there than I thought who would write the 7 of B as Bb if the passage is descending. I will concede that this is a notational convention I just haven't seen before. Always learning new things on talkbass!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The thing here is that we are talking about a Blues song which is a different beast then classical harmony. I am not sure that the minor harmonic scale has been ever played in an old Blues tune I'm just kiddin' but I think you'll get the point. The A# over a Bm7 is a passing tone to approach the root or chord tone, just like the F or even better the E# is the approaching note to F#. But it is accepted to used the F because it is easier to read. Ask any professional copyists or arranger and they will have to think twice before writing F or E# in this context. You can actually see both versions on a pro chart.

More about that A# or Bb notation.
(Never assume!)
Let's take Mushroo notation logic and write B/A#. No problems but...
What if I, as some lame wannabe composer, have the following chord progression over that B/A# bass-line - Bm7/Ebmaj7 (as Eb, G, Bb, D).

 

[Ewo]

I think you got confused with the F#7b5 chord. I've fought a big battle at TB in that thread.

Yep, indeed I did. Thanks!

 

[Groove Master]

Since you are "just kidding" I won't bother with a lengthy reply. I am a professional copyist and arranger, and I wrote a book on the blues. A# is an incredibly common note to find in a composition in the key of B minor. If you have ever taken music 101 then you know what function A# serves in the key of B. Bb? Not so much. This is not some crazy fringe case musical theory I am trying to share here. I am surprised my comment was in the least controversial, but that's talkbass.

Bb is the notation to use when you have a chromatic line going down from B to A. A# is used to connect A to B.

Since you are a pro charter how do you write the second note of The Thrill is gone E# or F ?

 

[Ewo]

More about that A# or Bb notation.
(Never assume!)
Let's take Mushroo notation logic and write B/A#. No problems but...
What if I, as some lame wannabe composer, have the following chord progression over that B/A# bass-line - Bm7/Ebmaj7 (as Eb, G, Bb, D).

My .02: That's not a diatonic progression, so I'd notate it in terms of the key center.

If I was writing a line over the Bm tonality, I'd use the convention for Bm. When I wrote a line over the Ebmaj tonality, I'd switch to its convention.

 

[Groove Master]

More about that A# or Bb notation.
(Never assume!)
Let's take Mushroo notation logic and write B/A#. No problems but...
What if I, as some lame wannabe composer, have the following chord progression over that B/A# bass-line - Bm7/Ebmaj7 (as Eb, G, Bb, D).

Ok for B/A# since A# is the seventh of the key or chord. I don't get the second chord since it doesn't exist unless you use polytonality then you would write each chord with there own set of notes