Scale degree number when the root is not the lowest note.....

[Whousedtoplay]

My .02: That's not a diatonic progression, so I'd notate it in terms of the key center.

If I was writing a line over the Bm tonality, I'd use the convention for Bm. When I wrote a line over the Ebmaj tonality, I'd switch to its convention.

...Therefore, the notation Bb would show only the bass moving down. Notation A# would tell me that the bass moves up from the Root.

 

[Matthew_84]

Like I mentioned before the octaves doesn't affect the scale's position. Your idea for mentioning the octave is great when working with MIDI tough.

I agree that a "I" (roman numeral one) or "R" (for the root) in a B chord/scale is a B note anywhere (B2, B3, B4, etc).

However, I think what Malcom wants to know is how to specify exactly which B, or F#, or whatever, is played with using only simple notation or scale degree numbers, and without having to rely on standard notation and ledger lines.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Ok for B/A# since A# is the seventh of the key or chord. I don't get the second chord since it doesn't exist

Am I missing something about that NOT-existing Ebmaj7?

 

[Groove Master]

Am I missing something about that NOT-existing Ebmaj7?

Read my edited post, sorry I don't know what you meant exactly. I though you meant a polychord Bmin over Eb Maj7

 

[Groove Master]

Case in point - Page 17 in Hal Leonard Blues Bass by Ed Friedland.
The Thrill is Gone, first measure Bm7 chord.
B, B, F. F#, F#, A# The F, F# and A# are all lower notes than the B.

How would you write this in scale degree numbers? R-R-b5-5-5-7 is what I would do if the root was the lowest, but, it's not. I can go up scale fine, but, going lower has me bumfuddled.

I do not do inversions and think this is the first time I've run up on something like this.

Little help please.

That is why standard notation exist. It tells you exactly what the notes are

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Read my edited post, sorry I don't know what you meant exactly

I've meant the following:
1.) In order to be consistent, I would use #'s when going UP and b's when going down as you said, but...
Mushroo asked about Bminor (major7) notation where, yes indeed, we write A# not Bb, but...
My response was that I take ONLY the bass note movement and also, I don't assume that A#/Bb is (exist only as) a chord note in Bminor(major7); therefore,
wrote that my next chord after Bminor7 is Ebmaj7 where Bb is the 5th of that chord.
I hope I was able to get my message across.

 

[Ewo]

...Therefore, the notation Bb would show only the bass moving down. Notation A# would tell me that the bass moves up from the Root.

I _think_ I'm getting the question.

If the following chord(s) stayed in Eb major, I'd use Bb in writing the line since I'm thinking the key of Eb.

But, if this is a two chord vamp and the chord following Ebmaj7 was a return to B minor, and the line is rising (over the Eb maj7 chord) to approach the root of Bmin, then yeah, I'd use A# for clarity. In a sense, I'd be anticipating where the line is going, harmonically.

Hey, IANA a copyist or arranger. I just enjoy discussions like this. In the charts I've had occasion to read, on an instrument, the notation's been all over the place.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I _think_ I'm getting the question.

If the following chord(s) stayed in Eb major, I'd use Bb in writing the line since I'm thinking the key of Eb.

But, if this is a two chord vamp and the chord following Ebmaj7 was a return to B minor, and the line is rising (over the Eb maj7 chord) to approach the root of Bmin, then yeah, I'd use A# for clarity. In a sense, I'd be anticipating where the line is going, harmonically.

Hey, IANA a copyist or arranger. I just enjoy discussions like this. In the charts I've had occasion to read, on an instrument, the notation's been all over the place.

Here is my next question.
What if you play in the big band and DON'T KNOW the chords for the other instruments.
In short.
You have only the bass notes without any mentioning of the chords.

 

[Groove Master]

Since you are "just kidding" I won't bother with a lengthy reply. I am a professional copyist and arranger, and I wrote a book on the blues. A# is an incredibly common note to find in a composition in the key of B minor. If you have ever taken music 101 then you know what function A# serves in the key of B. Bb? Not so much. This is not some crazy fringe case musical theory I am trying to share here. I am surprised my comment was in the least controversial, but that's talkbass.

Gee man I wrote Groove 101, Slap 101, Technique 101 and soon Jazz 101.

I guess you haven't wrote any Jazz books because chromatic notes with # for up and b for down are the essence of jazz writing and commercial music as well.

 

[brianrost]

The scale degree is the same regardless of the octave it is in.

Did Ed really write an F (not F#) during the Bm7? I'll have to go back and listen to the record...works OK as a passing tone to the F# as long as it's short or ghosted.

F# and A#, sure. The cool thing in that bass line is the major 7th (A#) even though the chord calls for the flat 7th. That definitely is on the record.

Guys, B minor is just the relative to minor key to D major. D major is a "sharp" key (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#). Look at the staff and you'll see two sharps.

 

[Ewo]

Here is my next question.
What if you play in the big band and DON'T KNOW the chords for the other instruments.
In short.
You have only the bass notes without any mentioning of the chords.

Well, if I'm getting the question...

If I was the copyist doing a chart for an instrument without including chord symbols, I'd just keep the notation simple (no double sharps or flats, no B#, no Fb) for the player. That's because my purpose was just to have the player reproduce the line, and I wasn't worried about his/her understanding the line harmonically. So yeah, in general I'd generally use flats in a descending linear passage and sharps in a rising linear passage.

But if I was working on a score or even a lead sheet for a tune, I'd want the notation to track the functional harmony, and I'd be more rigorous in having the notation consistent with the key center at each point in the tune.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Well, if I'm getting the question...

So yeah, in general I'd generally use flats in a descending linear passage and sharps in a rising linear passage.

...generally speaking...

 

[hintz]

If I'm reading your question correctly - if/once you learn a song, then as you refer to a chart you will know whether the scale degree is higher or lower as you're playing it.

For initially charting out a song, I use my own system of writing down a little "L" (maybe/maybe not in parenthesis) underneath the scale degree so I'll know if it's intended to go below. If it's not there, I go higher. Any type of code can work since you're the one writing it out, i.e., maybe a little line underneath to signify "lower". Sometimes, it doesn't matter since as I'm playing a song, maybe I'll change it up for effect and go lower when I usually go higher, or vice versa, since it's the same pitch. Of course, if you're then going to hand your chart to someone else, they won't know what your little Malcolm Code means until you explain it to them.

It's been a while, but iirc Ed Friedland's Complete Bass Method book may have done something similar to differentiate higher/lower. That's probably where I "borrowed" the idea from.

I use an arrow pointing downwards w/scale degrees...

 

[Ewo]

...generally speaking...

Well, it would depend on my purpose in writing the chart: to get somebody to make the notes, or to show the harmonic structure of the piece.

If I was transcribing a line for my own study, I'd absolutely use the notation appropriate to the tonality, however many key centers it went through--because I'd want to have that for my own understanding of how the chord progression functioned.


Added: please don't ask me what I'd do if the piece was atonal or polytonal! I dunno...

 

[Basshoofd]

The same people keep making simple threads complicated.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes B is the root. My problem comes with the other notes being lower than the B. How in scale degree numbers do you write this?

Thanks for all the replies. What I'm taking from all of this is that there is not an easy way of writing scale degree numbers lower than the root. This is where standard notation takes over.

I'm going to file page 72 away and move on to page 73.

Again thanks for your answers.

 

[maisbass]

Case in point - Page 72 in Hal Leonard Blues Bass by Ed Friedland.
The Thrill is Gone, first measure Bm7 chord.
B, B, F. F#, F#, A# The F, F# and A# are all lower notes than the B.

How would you write this in scale degree numbers? R-R-b5-5-5-7 is what I would do if the root was the lowest, but, it's not. I can go up scale fine, but, going lower has me bumfuddled.

I do not do inversions and think this is the first time I've run up on something like this.

Little help please.

Save yourself the trouble and this epic of a thread and just write it out in standard notation. This way there will be no question where the notes lie and you get sight reading training as well. I know it's not simple notation, but at least there will be no indecision where the note is to be played.

Now I'll stir the pot.. You can always write the scale degrees over the notation as well....

As you were gentlemen. TB is always informative and very entertaining too.

 

[maisbass]

Thanks for all the replies. What I'm taking from all of this is that there is not an easy way of writing scale degree numbers lower than the root. This is where standard notation takes over.

I'm going to file page 72 away and move on to page 73.

Again thanks for your answers.

Well I see you came to that conclusion as I was writing my response. Lol.

 

[Groove Master]

I've meant the following:
1.) In order to be consistent, I would use #'s when going UP and b's when going down as you said, but...
Mushroo asked about Bminor (major7) notation where, yes indeed, we write A# not Bb, but...
My response was that I take ONLY the bass note movement and also, I don't assume that A#/Bb is (exist only as) a chord note in Bminor(major7); therefore,
wrote that my next chord after Bminor7 is Ebmaj7 where Bb is the 5th of that chord.
I hope I was able to get my message across.

What seems the problem here in the recent posts is the mismatch between a scale tone AND a chromatic note. Of course if the A# is going down to a scale tone like G# or G, the Bb is not the proper notation. Bb is used to connect chromatically 2 scale tones in a downward direction, that's all.

 

[Groove Master]

Thanks for all the replies. What I'm taking from all of this is that there is not an easy way of writing scale degree numbers lower than the root. This is where standard notation takes over.

I'm going to file page 72 away and move on to page 73.

Again thanks for your answers.

2 things can be done Malcolm now that I know what you are looking for:

1) it is common to indicate R8 for the root at the octave up. Since there is no mention of that in the bassline, the A# would be musically connecting to the bottom root a half-step from below since the major seventh it is not a great interval in a bassline.

2) would be the MIDI notation like someone mentioned earlier. Having B1-F1-F#1 and then A#0-B1.

Hope this helps

GM