scale shapes

[Rocktometrist]

Great posts.. and i just had this kind of moment about a month ago.. where it all clicked in my head..

There were two things that highlighted my road to understanding modes and finding where to put them in my head, because at the end of the day that is what it's all about. Getting it into your own head .. so that you can understand it if you do not have someone to guide you.

As a side note.. Because of the internet.. we are swamped with information about anything bass.. a new aspiring bassist can find stuff that 40 years ago would have cost someone who was not fortunate enough to have musicians around him (relatives friends etc) a lot of money either through lessons or books.. Today there is more free stuff available on the internet ... TB being a perfect example.. so as to give any aspiring bassist (musician period but since we do the down low... ) more information than he can handle without guidance. so that aspiring bassist has to find out where to put what he/she finds in their head in a way that makes sense to them and that will be an evolving point according to where they are in their learning.

For me .. one was the Bass Grimoire, which was the first time I even heard of modes.. but I could not tie it in.. It did not click.. Then I saw this video..

.. and the wheels started to clicking. I then revisited the Grimoire .. and I realized that if you look at modes as extensions of scales then they become more meaningful.. A G# Phrygian is an extension of the E ionian scale..

That's why I made those charts for my own use so that I would have something in front of me that tied it all in..

Great video. Helps solidify some ideas and I think it will open some doors for me. Thanks!

 

[SteveCS]

...
Learning a major scale backwards and forwards is a very good place to start.

Yes it is, and do it in all keys over at least 2 octaves - every time you go up and down you are playing through all of the modes at least once.
Playing 1-octave exercises, especially if you are over-dogmatic in observing the '1-finger - 1 fret' approach, can get you locked into 'lazy' fingering and does not equip your muscle memory with the 'alternative fingerings' needed to incorporate shifts and extensions (forwards and backwards) to facilitate smooth movement up and down the fingerboard.

 

[PauFerro]

Here is where I differ from others on learning scales. As an educator, I find that people need to see progress fast, or they get discouraged. So, I only have students learning the major scale in as few keys as possible at first -- and then get them improvising with it immediately over a total song. For example, the standard Blue Bossa has two major key centers, even though there are chords changing every bar in its 16 measures or so.

After they get the vision of what they are doing in that song that requires only two major scales, then, I will add yet another song that has 4 key centers, such as Ladybird.

 

[SteveCS]

Here is where I differ from others on learning scales. As an educator, I find that people need to see progress fast, or they get discouraged. So, I only have students learning the major scale in as few keys as possible at first -- and then get them improvising with it immediately over a total song. For example, the standard Blue Bossa has two major key centers, even though there are chords changing every bar in its 16 measures or so.

After they get the vision of what they are doing in that song that requires only two major scales, then, I will add yet another song that has 4 key centers, such as Ladybird.

I would absolutely agree with this approach for anyone starting out. Start with C and G (1 sharp). Then add F (1 flat) and D (2 sharps). Bb (2b) and A (3#) will cover off most positions and fingering options such that open strings and extensions will have been discovered by the student and they are then on their own journey.

 

[Rocktometrist]

Here is where I differ from others on learning scales. As an educator, I find that people need to see progress fast, or they get discouraged. So, I only have students learning the major scale in as few keys as possible at first -- and then get them improvising with it immediately over a total song. For example, the standard Blue Bossa has two major key centers, even though there are chords changing every bar in its 16 measures or so.

After they get the vision of what they are doing in that song that requires only two major scales, then, I will add yet another song that has 4 key centers, such as Ladybird.

I agree with this approach in general, but I wonder how much success beginning students have "immediately" improvising over Blue Bossa in their first lesson, having walked in off the street not even knowing how to play a simple C major scale. If you're honestly teaching first-day beginning students about key centers, and trying to explain that in Blue Bossa, when you you move to the Ebm7, you're changing to key center of Db major, and when you go to the Dm7b5, you're back in the key of C minor--and then have them immediately start improvising using those concepts, that's pretty impressive. Keep in mind the OP thought a C major scale started on the root of F#. And you're going to sit him down, teach him about tetra chords, key centers, chord structure, chord notation, and jazz soloing conceptual ideas--then have him blowing over Blue Bossa using key centers and modal concepts on the first day? That's impressive! I'd probably wait until the second lesson for all that. LOL

 

[Rocktometrist]

And, this: in a real playing situation, about 2% of all musicians want to hear the bass player laying down bass lines using the concept of key centers. Honestly, what they really want to hear is the chord root on the downbeat of each change, followed by an interesting line that takes you to the root of the next change. Teaching a beginner to use key centers and modes that build lines away from the roots, as a foundational concept, is going to make them a) super unpopular and b) pretty much unemployable. In my opinion.

 

[SteveCS]

I agree with this approach in general, but I wonder how much success beginning students have "immediately" improvising over Blue Bossa in their first lesson, having walked in off the street not even knowing how to play a simple C major scale. If you're honestly teaching first-day beginning students about key centers, and trying to explain that in Blue Bossa, when you you move to the Ebm7, you're changing to key center of Db major, and when you go to the Dm7b5, you're back in the key of C minor--and then have them immediately start improvising using those concepts, that's pretty impressive. Keep in mind the OP thought a C major scale started on the root of F#. And you're going to sit him down, teach him about tetra chords, key centers, chord structure, chord notation, and jazz soloing conceptual ideas--then have him blowing over Blue Bossa using key centers and modal concepts on the first day? That's impressive! I'd probably wait until the second lesson for all that. LOL

Indeed. For me the takeaway points of @PauFerro's post, which I don't think at any point implied doing it all on day 1, were these...

...
...
So, I only have students learning the major scale in as few keys as possible at first
...
...
After they get the vision of what they are doing in that song that requires only two major scales, then, I will add yet another song...

My support was for the idea of, for a beginner, starting with a single key, C Major, then learning additional keys as they relate to prior learning - adding sharps following the cycle of 5ths, adding flats following the cycle of 4ths, and introducing relative minor keys of the major scales already learned. All of this will encourage ear development which then leads on to the ability to improvise

 

[Spin Doctor]

And, this: in a real playing situation, about 2% of all musicians want to hear the bass player laying down bass lines using the concept of key centers. Honestly, what they really want to hear is the chord root on the downbeat of each change, followed by an interesting line that takes you to the root of the next change. Teaching a beginner to use key centers and modes that build lines away from the roots, as a foundational concept, is going to make them a) super unpopular and b) pretty much unemployable. In my opinion.

I would think key centers apply to soloing, not necessarily walking basslines. Although, I hear Paul Chambers and others play basslines based on modes all the time. My approach is a matter of employing all of the techniques i.e. modes, pentatonics, arpeggios etc. in order to weave that stuff together, in and out of various methods of building arcs, regardless of whether it's a solo or a walking line.

As much as possible in a playing situation, it's about my intentions choosing the notes, not me saying, "I do X when in Y situation".

I don't think that PauFerros intent was to use key centers to build basslines. I never got that impressions, anyway. But you can do it, actually as long as you tend to put the chord tones on the strong beats. Your ear will ignore the tones on the weak beats regardless.

 

[Rocktometrist]

I would think key centers apply to soloing, not necessarily walking basslines. Although, I hear Paul Chambers and others play basslines based on modes all the time. My approach is a matter of employing all of the techniques i.e. modes, pentatonics, arpeggios etc. in order to weave that stuff together, in and out of various methods of building arcs, regardless of whether it's a solo or a walking line.

As much as possible in a playing situation, it's about my intentions choosing the notes, not me saying, "I do X when in Y situation".

I don't think that PauFerros intent was to use key centers to build basslines. I never got that impressions, anyway. But you can do it, actually as long as you tend to put the chord tones on the strong beats. Your ear will ignore the tones on the weak beats regardless.

Fair enough-- but if that is the case, then his intention is to teach a beginning bass player how to play jazz solos as his first baby step in learning about music. Which makes no sense to me. Might want to focus on scales and chords and progressions first, and hold off on advanced theoretical jazz soloing until the guy understands how to play a competent walking line over a ii-V-I...at least then he would be equipped to play jazz and make real music with other beginners. If he instead shows up at the beginner's jam and starts busting out his awesome jazz solos, but doesn't know how to clearly outline rhythm changes, he's gonna be a pariah.

Honestly, I think over-intellectualization has ruined jazz, made it almost unlistenable, and is a leading cause for it's ongoing demise as a popular artform. All knowledge is good, and nobody wants to hear a jazz musician painting by numbers--but they also don't want to hear a musician who needs a slide rule and an Excel spreadsheet to figure out the lines he's playing. At a certain point, it becomes at least as much about the math as it is about the music--and that's where jazz music has driven audiences away in droves.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Fair enough-- but if that is the case, then his intention is to teach a beginning bass player how to play jazz solos as his first baby step in learning about music. Which makes no sense to me. Might want to focus on scales and chords and progressions first, and hold off on advanced theoretical jazz soloing until the guy understands how to play a competent walking line over a ii-V-I...at least then he would be equipped to play jazz and make real music with other beginners. If he instead shows up at the beginner's jam and starts busting out his awesome jazz solos, but doesn't know how to clearly outline rhythm changes, he's gonna be a pariah.

Honestly, I think over-intellectualization has ruined jazz, made it almost unlistenable, and is a leading cause for it's ongoing demise as a popular artform. All knowledge is good, and nobody wants to hear a jazz musician painting by numbers--but they also don't want to hear a musician who needs a slide rule and an Excel spreadsheet to figure out the lines he's playing. At a certain point, it becomes at least as much about the math as it is about the music--and that's where jazz music has driven audiences away in droves.

I do agree with you on a lot of your points, but even though he's not here to defend his position, my thought is that I'd cut some slack and try not to read into his explaining one potential concept of learning scales as his entire method of teaching jazz… I'm willing to bet there are a lot of other aspects of his teaching that did not happen to get mentioned in this one internet post…

On the topic of folks overanalyzing jazz, I totally agree, but that's probably because, jazz which was the popular music of the 40's became unapproachable by design in the 50's so that it couldn't be played by "hacks". So my opinion is that the development and growth of Bebop created an environment where only the people who really wanted to get into it would further its development. At that point, the masses dropped it like a hot rock, to get into other stuff that was more appealing to them, because they sure couldn't dance to that...

In the intervening 60 years, it could only become more intellectual and codified… Except for that brief period where Creed Taylor tried to make it popular again with his sort of easy listening CTi label stuff. As far as I can tell, that's where smooth jazz came from, more or less.

Anyway, at the risk of derailing this thread even more, I will mention that music education is at an all-time low here in the good ole United States of Entertainment. I read that the Atlanta school board was going to completely eliminate music education as part of its curriculum. This is a major "American" municipality, completely removing the opportunity for millions of kids to experience music directly. This is not going to help the cause of jazz since it really is a music you have to sort of study in some aspects to appreciate.

 

[toxicbass]

Hey OP: ignore half of what is posted here--no reason to confuse yourself with modes and multiple scale patterns when you're still learning the basics of a major scale.

The first few posters gave great advice--learn the basic major scale shape (which you did), figure out where the notes on the fretboard are (sounds like you're on it), and learn how the scale shapes relate to the notes on the board (like how you have to start the pattern on the root note). As I think you've gathered by now, that single major scale shape will allow you to play ANY major scale, as long as you "start" it on the desired root note. Also know that you can play the scale going up or down from the root (so if you start on the "C" on the A string, you can play down the scale and hit that G and A you were asking about).

Start playing that major scale, up and down. Listen to what it sounds like. Play the notes out of order and make bass lines (focus on ideas based around the root and fifth scale degree at first--those notes are a bassist's bread and butter). Pretty quickly, you'll start to hear what a major scale sounds like, and you'll instantly hear it if you hit a wrong note. That's important, because as you start learning other scale shapes, you'll be able to hear how they sound compared to that basic major scale--it will give you a baseline (no pun intended) from which you can compare other chord flavors and scale shapes.

Sounds like you're asking the right questions. Good luck and have fun!

Yes all the info got a little hard to follow so I'm just focusing on major scales for awhile. Really in no rush to know everything. Thanks for all the helpful posts.

 

[PauFerro]

I wasn't implying that I would throw all this stuff at a beginner. As I said, I am a teacher by trade, and have managed to succeed teaching complex math, statistics, business, computer programming concepts by reducing the complex to the dead simple. You'll have to trust me on that, as it's my life's work, and it's been one thing that people complement me on.

If I was teaching a beginner, I would first have to assess what kind of a learner they are. There are some that won't learn standard notation if you paid them. These people often want patterns. Others are academic in their approach, and others are intuitive and ear players.

So each student will take a different path to mastering the jazz genre, which is the preferred genre I like to teach. I actually don't like to take on ear players as I can't teach them anything. They are in a different world than I am. But I will work with those who like patterns, or hard core theory and application. And the money is so weak in music as it is, I only accept students now that want to learn jazz...as then I will enjoy myself.

So, if I had a student that wanted to learn jazz, I would start them off with chord tones over simple changes (getting the basics slowly but with songs that really make them feel they are learning fast). At first, you are not teaching music, you are teaching ATTITUDES toward music, so making sure the first couple lessons are rewarding, and laden with progress, is absolutely critical.

I also think that in spite of all the books written about jazz, there isn't an approach out there that I have experienced (and trust me, I have dropped a ton of coin on music books), that has worked for me. I hope someday to write one....

 

[Bodhammer]

I wasn't implying that I would throw all this stuff at a beginner. As I said, I am a teacher by trade, and have managed to succeed teaching complex math, statistics, business, computer programming concepts by reducing the complex to the dead simple. You'll have to trust me on that, as it's my life's work, and it's been one thing that people complement me on.

If I was teaching a beginner, I would first have to assess what kind of a learner they are. There are some that won't learn standard notation if you paid them. These people often want patterns. Others are academic in their approach, and others are intuitive and ear players.

So each student will take a different path to mastering the jazz genre, which is the preferred genre I like to teach. I actually don't like to take on ear players as I can't teach them anything. They are in a different world than I am. But I will work with those who like patterns, or hard core theory and application. And the money is so weak in music as it is, I only accept students now that want to learn jazz...as then I will enjoy myself.

So, if I had a student that wanted to learn jazz, I would start them off with chord tones over simple changes (getting the basics slowly but with songs that really make them feel they are learning fast). At first, you are not teaching music, you are teaching ATTITUDES toward music, so making sure the first couple lessons are rewarding, and laden with progress, is absolutely critical.

I also think that in spite of all the books written about jazz, there isn't an approach out there that I have experienced (and trust me, I have dropped a ton of coin on music books), that has worked for me. I hope someday to write one....

Thank for taking the time to do the Tetra Chord lesson. I appreciate it!

I'm curious, what tool did you use to do your chord diagrams?

 

[PauFerro]

It was called Neck Diagrams -- free version I downloaded based on a recommendation from someone here on Talk bass last week.