I agree. Wish I could afford it right now. As it is, it's just me, books, and the internet. It's working, although a teacher could be of great use to me. Hopefully in the not to far off future I can get to that.
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Scales and Noodling
- Thread starter bassinplace
- Start date
I agree. Wish I could afford it right now. As it is, it's just me, books, and the internet. It's working, although a teacher could be of great use to me. Hopefully in the not to far off future I can get to that.
Of course ... I guess I'm just a little perplexed as to how someone could learn sightreading and have good knowledge of scales, and yet not know how to form a chord? Leaving aside inversions, substitutions, etc., it's pretty simple stuff, honestly. Whether your focus is scales or intervals, the formula for making a chord isn't that hard - I'm pretty sure I discovered it for myself (when I was younger) before anyone showed it to me. (Now, as to putting chords together in a musical way, that's another topic...)
i so don't get the notion that analysis and creativity are mutually exclusive. uneducated rock and blues musicians have been trying to put that one over on us for decades, and it's bullcrap. the vast majority of musicians who don't know music analytically end up not being able to do anything with music. the few that can are by far the exceptions and not the norm.
If you say so. I'm not trying to bs anyone, just referring to personal experience. I guess at the end of the day whatever works, works.
you've already said you're a beginner. you wouldn't go into a physics class as a beginner thinking that whatever works works...and i will never understand why musical beginners feel that it's perfectly alright to do so. truth is you're not qualified to know what works. the only perspective you have at the moment is your own beginner's perspective, which boils down to "no perspective."
this is a big pet peeve of mine...you never hear someone who has a lot of formal musical training say "whatever works works." only beginners and the very lucky few that were able to make sense out of music with no formal training say that. and unless you become a rock star (you have better chances of getting bit by a shark and winning the lottery on the same day than being a rock star no matter what your level of education), it's the fast track to palookaville.
Wow. bitter much? Well, there's no art in physics so that analogy doesn't apply. But on more positive note, keep groovin' bro!
- Apr 1, 2000
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This should be interesting.
FWIW, Jimmy is a working pro, with a great gig. He's been playing longer than most TBers have been alive. You could do worse than listening to him. And he's preaching the truth right now.
FWIW, Jimmy is a working pro, with a great gig. He's been playing longer than most TBers have been alive. You could do worse than listening to him. And he's preaching the truth right now.
I'm sure you're right. Just not sure where the personal attacks are coming from. Oh well, brood and let brood I guess.
who's bitter, dude? i'm just telling you the truth. just because it's art doesn't mean there isn't a whole world of technical things involved that are great and useful to know. and it doesn't mean that any beginner out there is qualified to know what's best. you asked why a lot of us are down on your way of thinking and i told you. sorry, but i don't do the "tell you what you want to hear" thing very well. all too often i make the mistake of thinking that people want honest answers and not feel-good stuff that reinforces mistaken beliefs. i'm slow to catch on, i guess, but more and more i'm seeing that they don't.
btw, thanks jon and likewise. jon leads air force bands that absolutely smoke, btw.
btw, thanks jon and likewise. jon leads air force bands that absolutely smoke, btw.
When I started the guy who I was taking lessons from (who is still the best bassist I have ever met) split my lessons up into two types.
First thing he showed me were scales and how to play them and say out loud the name of each note. That thought me the fret board REALLY well. He would randomly drill me on it to keep me up on it. From there he showed me the chords and how they relate to scales. Then how to play chords (yup) first power chords and then more advanced ones.
The other type of lesson would to bring in some song I liked (usually some chili peppers or muse song) and from listening to it he would show me how to play it and how the line related to the chords and scales. The main focus was to teach me how to hear a note and then find it on my bass. He would then write out the bass line on sheet paper. He didn't believe in TABs and I was okay with this.
Fast forward to today I'm now a full time bassist in a rock band and I spend more time on the road than home. I got EXTREMELY lucky and have worked my ass off.
Not all approaches work for all people. But the one I got worked great for me.
First thing he showed me were scales and how to play them and say out loud the name of each note. That thought me the fret board REALLY well. He would randomly drill me on it to keep me up on it. From there he showed me the chords and how they relate to scales. Then how to play chords (yup) first power chords and then more advanced ones.
The other type of lesson would to bring in some song I liked (usually some chili peppers or muse song) and from listening to it he would show me how to play it and how the line related to the chords and scales. The main focus was to teach me how to hear a note and then find it on my bass. He would then write out the bass line on sheet paper. He didn't believe in TABs and I was okay with this.
Fast forward to today I'm now a full time bassist in a rock band and I spend more time on the road than home. I got EXTREMELY lucky and have worked my ass off.
Not all approaches work for all people. But the one I got worked great for me.
Imo, the theory should be undertaken to the max, no amount of over -education can hurt your playing, only you can do that, it will introduce you to tonalities/ideas you would not have considered, theory is there for a reason.
Noodling, fine, you have to experiment and not all of it is going to be good, as jimmy posted, it's throwing ideas at a wall and seeing what sticks, in a positive view this could be construed as separating the wheat from the chaff, the ideas that do work, will stick.Then you put them together to form some continuity of flow. That's what I see, no -one plays incredulous stuff all the time unless your C. Parker and the like?
On the other hand, going up on stage and just running scales, ain't gonna make it, to anyone who knows the score, they will see it for what it is.
Internalise, separate, make it musical, bring your own experiences to it. Sound like you, that is the hard part. I mentioned Wes Mongomery earlier, he's one in a million, probably more.
This may be off T at this point, it's just my 2 cents, I get the feeling I shouldn't have got involved in this one, it's tricky : )
Noodling, fine, you have to experiment and not all of it is going to be good, as jimmy posted, it's throwing ideas at a wall and seeing what sticks, in a positive view this could be construed as separating the wheat from the chaff, the ideas that do work, will stick.Then you put them together to form some continuity of flow. That's what I see, no -one plays incredulous stuff all the time unless your C. Parker and the like?
On the other hand, going up on stage and just running scales, ain't gonna make it, to anyone who knows the score, they will see it for what it is.
Internalise, separate, make it musical, bring your own experiences to it. Sound like you, that is the hard part. I mentioned Wes Mongomery earlier, he's one in a million, probably more.
This may be off T at this point, it's just my 2 cents, I get the feeling I shouldn't have got involved in this one, it's tricky : )
Gotcha, no worries. Driving home the fact that I'm new seems a bit counter productive to me though. I know I am, but it won't be that way forever. I've made quite a fair deal of progress in the time I've been playing. I gather all my info from people who know, I would never assume I could just figure it out on my own. I mean I'm no dummy, but I don't have that kind of gift. For the record, I believe that creative ability and technical knowledge go hand in hand when it comes to making high quality music. I just posed my question out of curiosity because people seem to have a tendency to tell beginners to shy away from the aforementioned activities, and I use them quite regularly at this point to good effect. It's not all I want to learn, nor will it be. I've got a long ways to go and I look forward to every step of it.
I will say 'noodling' here is considered something of not much worth, terminology don't you love it
Creative, I like that one
I found this thread and line of discussions really interesting. As a player who I would say is really unschooled (more in a Sheehan-mode, not nearly as talented of course) I thought there was some wonderful insights here.
I completely agree with Jimmy and Skitch that the more theory you can learn the better. Jimmy's statement, "the vast majority of musicians who don't know music analytically end up not being able to do anything with music." rings very true. I would take their suggestions very seriously, learn and grasp all you can.
I feel I've been very lucky - with limited theoretical knowledge - to have had a mild degree of success. I don't read music really (don't sight read at all). Of course I know scales and chord structures, and my way around the fretboard, but deep theory eludes me, never really went there. I've relied more on my ear and a sense of knowing (I guess).
As Skitch said, and I paraphrase, learn all you can and then learn to forget it. Forget it till it becomes a part of you. I find when I think about what I'm doing I'm doomed, but with the free flow, somehow it all just happens.
I only really chime in here because tonight I touched base with and old friend I used to play with, a monster guitar player, very analytical, very schooled, just an amazing player. As old friends do we exchanged some back and forth on old days and he was nice enough to throw this bone my way, "You too were a force to be reckoned with. No one had the original style that you had. It was all feel with you. No boundaries- no theory- just good slammin' bass playing!" Coming from this guy, I was touched.
It takes all kinds in the music world, but your best path of success is to learn all you can about how it all fits together. These guys on here know of what they speak, but you can learn to make it all mesh. Your clearest path to a life making music is to understand all the theory and "analytical" stuff, it should only deepen your creative side.
I say noodle all you want, but do it with some purpose.
I completely agree with Jimmy and Skitch that the more theory you can learn the better. Jimmy's statement, "the vast majority of musicians who don't know music analytically end up not being able to do anything with music." rings very true. I would take their suggestions very seriously, learn and grasp all you can.
I feel I've been very lucky - with limited theoretical knowledge - to have had a mild degree of success. I don't read music really (don't sight read at all). Of course I know scales and chord structures, and my way around the fretboard, but deep theory eludes me, never really went there. I've relied more on my ear and a sense of knowing (I guess).
As Skitch said, and I paraphrase, learn all you can and then learn to forget it. Forget it till it becomes a part of you. I find when I think about what I'm doing I'm doomed, but with the free flow, somehow it all just happens.
I only really chime in here because tonight I touched base with and old friend I used to play with, a monster guitar player, very analytical, very schooled, just an amazing player. As old friends do we exchanged some back and forth on old days and he was nice enough to throw this bone my way, "You too were a force to be reckoned with. No one had the original style that you had. It was all feel with you. No boundaries- no theory- just good slammin' bass playing!" Coming from this guy, I was touched.
It takes all kinds in the music world, but your best path of success is to learn all you can about how it all fits together. These guys on here know of what they speak, but you can learn to make it all mesh. Your clearest path to a life making music is to understand all the theory and "analytical" stuff, it should only deepen your creative side.
I say noodle all you want, but do it with some purpose.
Props to JimmyM and Skitch It! On any other forum site the OP would have been crucified somewhere between the "bitter much" and "personal attacks" accusations, but you guys showed some real class. Tough love is still love. Hopefully we will all benefit from the wisdom in your posts.
And as for "there is no art in [theoretical] physics" comment, I'm certainly glad that Einstein didn't get the memo.
And as for "there is no art in [theoretical] physics" comment, I'm certainly glad that Einstein didn't get the memo.
I've heard tell that Coltrane spent hours a day playing every damn scale and mode he could get his hands on, just so he'd have it at his fingertips if he wanted. This is just what some bloke told me.
Then again, I think a surprising number of bassists that have inspired highly proficient TB'ers with their creativity were less schooled than you would imagine. I'm just some bloke saying this.
