Scales for 7b13 chord question... what am I missing?

[Bass Momma]

Can someone help me figure out what I'm missing, please?
I'm working my way through Levine's Jazz Theory, and have compiled a table - attached - based on his Chapter 3 on chord/scale theory, which covers Major Scale Harmony, Melodic Minor Harmony, Half-Whole Tone Harmony, and Whole Tone Harmony. Happy...
Until I played Autumn Leaves this evening (against iReal), and came to the B7b13.
| A-7 | D7| GM7| CM7|
|F#-7b5| B7b13| E-6| E7| etc
According to the Levine theory, that could/should be a whole tone scale. But B C# D# F sounds wrong - needs to be B C# D# E. And iReal is identifying it as a Mixolydian b9b13 scale (as elsewhere). Wah??
Is that coming from harmonic minor harmony?? And if so, how would I know which to choose?
BTW, on Stella, the whole tone scale works against the G7b13 that starts the C section.

Aaarrggghhh!

 

[Spin Doctor]

Can someone help me figure out what I'm missing, please?
I'm working my way through Levine's Jazz Theory, and have compiled a table - attached - based on his Chapter 3 on chord/scale theory, which covers Major Scale Harmony, Melodic Minor Harmony, Half-Whole Tone Harmony, and Whole Tone Harmony. Happy...
Until I played Autumn Leaves this evening (against iReal), and came to the B7b13.
| A-7 | D7| GM7| CM7|
|F#-7b5| B7b13| E-6| E7| etc
According to the Levine theory, that could/should be a whole tone scale. But B C# D# F sounds wrong - needs to be B C# D# E. And iReal is identifying it as a Mixolydian b9b13 scale (as elsewhere). Wah??
Is that coming from harmonic minor harmony?? And if so, how would I know which to choose?
BTW, on Stella, the whole tone scale works against the G7b13 that starts the C section.

Aaarrggghhh!

The Harmony puzzles! In this case, I'm pretty sure you can use the Melodic Minor scale that's up a 4th from the chord. That scale will give you only one altered tone, which will be the #5 (b6) So you can play E melodic minor on the B7b13 and on the face of it, it seems you can use E melodic minor over all 4 chords in that section. Autumn Leaves is one of those tunes that I should have worked on but haven't yet. So I don't know how it sounds, but I think it will work over all that. Maybe worth checking out.

But you have a Minor 2-5-1, (|F#-7b5| B7b13| E-6|) Leading to the E7, so E harmonic minor is probably a better choice. I'm not familiar with the whole tone scale, but my (current) rule of thumb is that you can use some kind of Melodic Minor over nearly any dominant chord (really, anything goes for Dominants) and Harmonic Minor over a Minor 2-5-1 progression.

You choose the one you play based on what you want to hear. I don't know that I'd worry so much about the whole tone scale just yet. For me, all I'm focusing on right now is MM, HM and H/W diminished scales. With that under your belt you can solo over anything.

 

[Mushroo]

My advice, don't lose track of the fact that "Autumn Leaves" is in the key of E Minor.

B7 is the V7 or "dominant five" chord of E Minor. "Dominant-to-tonic" or "five-to-one" harmony is the most important Harmony 101 concept to understand.

If you look at the melody notes over this chord, the composer uses notes like B, C#, D#, F# and G.

Therefore my advice to a beginner jazz improviser, is that E Melodic Minor is a solid choice of scale for the minor ii-V progression in "Autumn Leaves." (And of course, we avoid the note E until we get to the i chord, since it's our target.)

It can be tempting sometimes when we read a new book, or learn a new concept, to "miss the forest for the trees." But my advice, always focus on the big-picture context: What key are you in, and where is the progression going? What is its function? What's happening in the melody?

Does the Mark Levine book have a chapter specifically about "minor ii-V" progressions? That's the concept at play here in "Autumn Leaves.

tl;dr as my starting point, I would play the 6 note scale B C# D# F# G A

 

[Groove Master]

Can someone help me figure out what I'm missing, please?
I'm working my way through Levine's Jazz Theory, and have compiled a table - attached - based on his Chapter 3 on chord/scale theory, which covers Major Scale Harmony, Melodic Minor Harmony, Half-Whole Tone Harmony, and Whole Tone Harmony. Happy...
Until I played Autumn Leaves this evening (against iReal), and came to the B7b13.
| A-7 | D7| GM7| CM7|
|F#-7b5| B7b13| E-6| E7| etc
According to the Levine theory, that could/should be a whole tone scale. But B C# D# F sounds wrong - needs to be B C# D# E. And iReal is identifying it as a Mixolydian b9b13 scale (as elsewhere). Wah??
Is that coming from harmonic minor harmony?? And if so, how would I know which to choose?
BTW, on Stella, the whole tone scale works against the G7b13 that starts the C section.

Aaarrggghhh!

One thing that is getting old is those b13 chords notation. Because of the ambiguity of the perfect fifth in the chord that should be omitted when the b13 is in the chord.

In fact it implies that the chord has a b6 in it and is the minor third of the I minor chord coming. G in this case for AL.

Two modes can be played over that chord:
1) The fifth mode of the Eminor harmonic. B-C-D#-E-F#-G-A. It is also called the Phrygian dominant scale because it is a Phrygian scale but with a major third. Actually that minor third could be played as a blues note (#9) over that B7 in AL. So you have the choice of playing all Phrygian or Dominant Phrygian.

2) The fifth mode of E minor melodic. Same notes as above but with a natural ninth (C#) that becomes the 6th of the Emin6.

 

[Spin Doctor]

One thing I want to add is that while it's well and good to know the "appropriate" scales to play over chords and whatnot, the thing that is crucial, is you gotta listen to the greats play this stuff. Like, pick some people who's solos you really love (not just bass players, please) and listen like you have OCD. Then transcribe it. Find what Miles Davis plays over |F#-7b5| B7b13| E-6| E7| in Cannonball Adderly's version of AL, copy it and use your knowledge of scales to figure out what he's doing. Work out those technical challenges. Then play it in all 12 keys. After awhile you will never have to ask, "how do I solo over this..." I'm not there yet, but I can see the process at work.

Knowing scales without some kind of context is like somebody saying, "use these letters to make a sentence in French". Well, turns out you don't know French. So you make up some stuff that you think sounds like French. But people who understand that language know that it's just gibberish.

 

[Bass Momma]

I should have added that I do usually approach Autumn Leaves - and others, through ii Vs, looking at key centers, and so on. What sent me down this particular rabbit hole was trying my hand at Levine's Continuous Scale exercise - which has you start on the scale of the first chord, then moving to the next scale tone of the next chord's scale, and so on. It's a very specific exercise, designed to deepen understanding of harmony; it's not a "how to play this song".
Thanks for the responses - they're very helpful.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Transcribing teaches you all that without the extra step. But exercise's certainly can't hurt

 

[Groove Master]

I should have added that I do usually approach Autumn Leaves - and others, through ii Vs, looking at key centers, and so on. What sent me down this particular rabbit hole was trying my hand at Levine's Continuous Scale exercise - which has you start on the scale of the first chord, then moving to the next scale tone of the next chord's scale, and so on. It's a very specific exercise, designed to deepen understanding of harmony; it's not a "how to play this song".
Thanks for the responses - they're very helpful.

As you might see you will be playing the same scale all the way: Eminor natural (Eolian, relative major scale) and add that major third on the V7(b9). That's it

As I explained in the other thread, you can play a horizontal improv on that tune also. Play the E minor natural bebop scale or the G Major bebop scale (same thing) all the way over the entire progression. Mix it with the blues scale and you'll have a nice solo ;-)

 

[Bob_Ross]

don't lose track of the fact that "Autumn Leaves" is in the key of E Minor.

:::mic drop:::

 

[BrotherMister]

The continuous scale exercise, and doing the same with arpeggios is a great technical workout, it also helps you get more control of your neck and being able to outline the changes without sacrificing your idea.

For a few reasons I'm not so hip on the Levine book of which I'll not go into because it's not what you've asked. I'll leave it at focusing more on the 'could be' rather than the notion of 'should be'.

Whole tone should sound fine on a V7. This may sound super simple but have you tried playing more of the whole tone scale over that chord? You've said B, C#, D# and F sounded wrong but getting the G and A in there as well should help define the chord a bit clearer as you've outlined the all important guides tones for the V7 chord.

 

[drumvsbass]

so E harmonic minor is probably a better choice.

This all the way. To be nerdy, it could even be 'B7b9b13'.

 

[DRay521]

My advice, don't lose track of the fact that "Autumn Leaves" is in the key of E Minor.

Fair warning, more players on gigs play this tune in G Minor. That’s the key Miles played it in, and 9 times out of 10 the key that horn players want it played in, IME. Not saying don’t work on it in E, but it’s at LEAST just as important to work on the changes in G Minor. And it can never hurt to learn that Miles intro vamp, so if the BL requests it or the piano player starts it, you’ve got it loaded up and ready to go.

 

[JimmyM]

What's wrong with using the chromatic scale? Honestly, the chords tell you everything to know. And what notes you can play are heavily dictated by the key signature and the chords surrounding the one "problem" chord. For example, in "Autumn Leaves," I'll often play quarter notes B-C-B-F leading back to the Em chord, or maybe B-F#-B-F if I want to break it up, remberering that it's the 13th that's flat, not the 4th. Or maybe even B-C-B-D#. But thinking ahead as as well as behind is required.

The point is, don't box yourself into finding a scale to play over it. Going off the board is often exactly what's needed, and it prevents you from sounding like all you're doing is running scales. As an academic exercise, scales are cool and we should know them. But when you're playing for reals, chord tones rule and so does imagination. So don't just rigidly try to find scales at the expense of sounding good. It's all about the notes you choose and where to place them, and you can make any note sound good if you know how to place it correctly. But there's a learning curve which is achieved by playing a lot of notes that sound bad till you hit on some good combinations

 

[Bass Momma]

What's wrong with using the chromatic scale? Honestly, the chords tell you everything to know. And what notes you can play are heavily dictated by the key signature and the chords surrounding the one "problem" chord. For example, in "Autumn Leaves," I'll often play quarter notes B-C-B-F leading back to the Em chord, or maybe B-F#-B-F if I want to break it up, remberering that it's the 13th that's flat, not the 4th. Or maybe even B-C-B-D#. But thinking ahead as as well as behind is required.

The point is, don't box yourself into finding a scale to play over it. Going off the board is often exactly what's needed, and it prevents you from sounding like all you're doing is running scales. As an academic exercise, scales are cool and we should know them. But when you're playing for reals, chord tones rule and so does imagination. So don't just rigidly try to find scales at the expense of sounding good. It's all about the notes you choose and where to place them, and you can make any note sound good if you know how to place it correctly. But there's a learning curve which is achieved by playing a lot of notes that sound bad till you hit on some good combinations

Absolutely - and especially when I'm walking this, chromaticism is my friend. In the heat of battle, stick with the tried and true. But the above is just me up in my music room trying to push the envelope. I mean - if I have to be locked up and not gigging, I might as well use that time to build a few muscles.

 

[JimmyM]

Absolutely - and especially when I'm walking this, chromaticism is my friend. In the heat of battle, stick with the tried and true. But the above is just me up in my music room trying to push the envelope. I mean - if I have to be locked up and not gigging, I might as well use that time to build a few muscles.

Hey, you have fun with that I have no problem with mental exercises. But since you brought it up, I don't disagree that you could play a whole tone B scale over that chord. It's all in where you place the F.

 

[Pings Bass]

IME you can overthink it, or you can play what sounds good.

Often times notated chords are just approximations of what was played on a certain record, and if you're convinced a certain notated chord always requires a certain scale, you'll be off when the piano player throws in a substitution, or plays different alterations in the extension.

My playing always sounds better when I don't overthink/overplay.

 

[Bass Momma]

IME you can overthink it, or you can play what sounds good.
.

Overthink?? Qui, MOI????

 

[Rib 13]

Try splitting it into a polychord

B7b13 can also be percieved as a B Major with an A7 stacked on it

 

[JimmyM]

Try splitting it into a polychord

B7b13 can also be percieved as a B Major with an A7 stacked on it

Where's the F?

 

[Rib 13]

Where's the F?

Shouldnt have an F

a B13:

1 B
3 D#
5 F#
7 A
9 C#
11 E
13 G#

so for B7b13, flatting the 13 would make it a G natural note, therefore an F double sharp (##)....EDIT: playing the 9 and 11 to pass would be cool...if soloing, I could probably play around with A Mixolydian in the higher registers to see what pops out