Scales for 7b13 chord question... what am I missing?

[Mushroo]

To play grumpy old-school devil's advocate: Why is it even necessary to specify the b13 when the song is in E Minor? IMHO it should be kind of "well, duh, obviously" to play G instead of G# on an E Minor ii-V.

 

[Groove Master]

To play grumpy old-school devil's advocate: Why is it even necessary to specify the b13 when the song is in E Minor? IMHO it should be kind of "well, duh, obviously" to play G instead of G# on an E Minor ii-V.

Yep but a beginner in jazz will see that x7 as a mixolydian most of the time without some sort of theory knowledge. But yes that is why I've suggested the 5th mode of the harmonic or melodic minor scales as a preferred choice first.

 

[Bass Momma]

To play grumpy old-school devil's advocate: Why is it even necessary to specify the b13 when the song is in E Minor? IMHO it should be kind of "well, duh, obviously" to play G instead of G# on an E Minor ii-V.

You're absolutely right, of course, except ... I'd need to think about it for a minute to register that obviously I shouldn't play that G#, being in the key of Em. For me, having that b13 is a useful elbow-in-the-ribs when playing the chart. There's a lot of stuff that becomes unconscious with enough years under your belt... not there yet!

 

[Bass Momma]

Yep but a beginner in jazz will see that x7 as a mixolydian most of the time without some sort of theory knowledge. But yes that is why I've suggested the 5th mode of the harmonic or melodic minor scales as a preferred choice first.

And as you're going through the long process acquiring that theory knowledge, there are times when your head explodes, and reversion to basics is a life saver.

 

[Groove Master]

And as you're going through the long process acquiring that theory knowledge, there are times when your head explodes, and reversion to basics is a life saver.

Studying standards like this is a great way to learn that stuff. I personally love AL because it makes you work on both minor ii-v-i and the II-V-I of the relative Major. Everything is glued together on the harmony grid.

Keep up the good work ;-)

 

[Wasnex]

Shouldnt have an F

a B13:

1 B
3 D#
5 F#
7 A
9 C#
11 E
13 G#

so for B7b13, flatting the 13 would make it a G natural note, therefore an F double sharp (##)....EDIT: playing the 9 and 11 to pass would be cool...if soloing, I could probably play around with A Mixolydian in the higher registers to see what pops out

I originally wanted to quibble with this, but chose not too at the time. AFAIK, the rule of not playing the D would relate more to the harmony than a walking bassline or melody.

I hadn't even realized that the OP was talking about Stella By Startlight. Yesterday Stella came up as I worked backwards through the Real Book and it made me think back to this thread. The Real Book uses G+7 instead of G7b13. I worked on Stella some more today, and when I reviewed the OP, I saw it's specifically the bar @Bass Momma is talking about. In this instance G+7 seems clearly intended as a simplification of G7b13.

Note the melody has a D (perfect 5th) over the chord in question (G+7 or G7b13).

Here is the Real Book page, so you can see what I am talking about. I put a red square around the G+7 bars and an green circle around the perfect fifth in the melody that occurs over the G+7. If it was really an augmented chord, I don't think the melody would have a perfect 5th.

IMHO a D works fine in the bass line as well. I do think there are good ways to work the D into the bassline and also not so good ways to do it. IMHO, it's nice to contrast it with the b13/+5.

Not saying it always works this way. But in this case, I think it does.

 

[Papageno]

There is one important point that I believe is missing in this thread: the melody. The role of the harmony (chords) is to support the melody. When reading a chart, in order to decide which extensions and scale can (or should) be used, one needs to examine carefully the melody.

In Autumn Leaves (Em version) the B7 is played in bars 6, 14, 18, 26, and 30.

In bar 6, the natural 9 (C#) is played prominently in the melody, so that playing a voicing or scale using the b9 (C) would clash badly with the melody. Thus playing the E harmonic minor scale or the B altered scale is not really a good choice. The better choice here is to play the E melodic minor scale (suitable also over the next chord Em6).

By contrast, in bar 26, the melody features a C (b9), and an F# (5), which calls for the E harmonic minor scale, or the B phrygian dominant scale.

In other instances of B7, neither C nor C# appears in the melody, but F# (5) is always present, so that either E melodic minor or E harmonic minor could be played.

 

[Brians356]

The Real Book uses G+7 instead of G7b13.

I've never seen a 7b13 symbol, and would assume it was just a 7+ and no listener in (or out of) the band would raise an eyebrow. In pop standards a dom-13 chord does not imply stacking in both the 9 and 11 (the common formal definition of a 13 chord) although the 9 is often played, and (on guitar anyway) the 5th is usually omitted in common forms. FWIW I don't implicitly trust RealBook, there are a lot of mistakes and curious reharmonizations enshrined in them and I trust only my own ears at the end of the day.
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[Wasnex]

I trust only my own ears at the end of the day.

I think this is the right answer. However, play the same song with different musicians and it's possible your ear might tell you something different. Jazz can be funny like that .