Scales for 7b13 chord question... what am I missing?

[Pings Bass]

Overthink?? Qui, MOI????

I only say that because I'm guilty of it waaaayyyyy too much!! I always sound better when I trust my ear over my brain. Also, I've worked with enough piano players and guitarists who take liberties to know you can't bury your nose in the chart and stick to what's written when the pianist is going where the muse takes him or her. If it sounds wrong, it is wrong, no matter what the book says.

 

[JimmyM]

Shouldnt have an F

a B13:

1 B
3 D#
5 F#
7 A
9 C#
11 E
13 G#

so for B7b13, flatting the 13 would make it a G note, therefore an F double sharp (##)....playing the 9 and 11 to pass would be cool...if soloing, I could probably play around with A Mixolydian in the higher registers to see what pops out

Oh geez, you are correct. I got hung up on the F in the OP. My apologies.

 

[Bass Momma]

Where's the F?

POLYCHORDS - my teacher has been making me live with these for the past few weeks. Love it! Isn't it great when bits start connecting?

 

[Scott Lynch]

Can someone help me figure out what I'm missing, please?
I'm working my way through Levine's Jazz Theory, and have compiled a table - attached - based on his Chapter 3 on chord/scale theory, which covers Major Scale Harmony, Melodic Minor Harmony, Half-Whole Tone Harmony, and Whole Tone Harmony. Happy...
Until I played Autumn Leaves this evening (against iReal), and came to the B7b13.
| A-7 | D7| GM7| CM7|
|F#-7b5| B7b13| E-6| E7| etc
According to the Levine theory, that could/should be a whole tone scale. But B C# D# F sounds wrong - needs to be B C# D# E. And iReal is identifying it as a Mixolydian b9b13 scale (as elsewhere). Wah??
Is that coming from harmonic minor harmony?? And if so, how would I know which to choose?
BTW, on Stella, the whole tone scale works against the G7b13 that starts the C section.

Aaarrggghhh!

b13 often indicates the use of an altered scale. For B7b13, try the B altered scale: B C D Eb F G A B.

Levine covers this in the section of his theory book on "Melodic Minor Harmony".

 

[Rib 13]

Oh geez, you are correct. I got hung up on the F in the OP. My apologies.

no problemo

I like to think in terms of polychords because it breaks complex chords down to smaller digestible bites and helps me to think on the fly faster.....

Its much more easier to think of B13 as a BMajor with an Amaj7 stacked on it than the whole of a B13
And faster to extrapolate what a B7b13 consists of by flatting the G# of a B13 to make a polychord of B major with an A7 stack (keeping the 9 and 11, cause I just may want to play those lol)

It also helps me think of which modes (and substitutions) I can have as some starter options

 

[Bass Momma]

no problemo

I like to think in terms of polychords because it breaks complex chords down to smaller digestible bites and helps me to think on the fly faster.....

Its much more easier to think of B13 as a BMajor with an Amaj7 stacked on it than the whole of a B13
And faster to extrapolate what a B7b13 consists of by flatting the G# of a B13 to make a polychord of B major with an A7 stack (keeping the 9 and 11, cause I just may want to play those lol)

It also helps me think of which modes (and substitutions) I can have as some starter options

My polychords are embarrassingly slow at the moment. Maybe if we have another year of lockdown (quod avertat) I'll be able to use them "on the fly". Onward, upward!

 

[Scott Lynch]

Can someone help me figure out what I'm missing, please?
I'm working my way through Levine's Jazz Theory, and have compiled a table - attached - based on his Chapter 3 on chord/scale theory, which covers Major Scale Harmony, Melodic Minor Harmony, Half-Whole Tone Harmony, and Whole Tone Harmony. Happy...
Until I played Autumn Leaves this evening (against iReal), and came to the B7b13.
| A-7 | D7| GM7| CM7|
|F#-7b5| B7b13| E-6| E7| etc
According to the Levine theory, that could/should be a whole tone scale. But B C# D# F sounds wrong - needs to be B C# D# E. And iReal is identifying it as a Mixolydian b9b13 scale (as elsewhere). Wah??
Is that coming from harmonic minor harmony?? And if so, how would I know which to choose?
BTW, on Stella, the whole tone scale works against the G7b13 that starts the C section.

Aaarrggghhh!

Sorry for the double post. I looked at your harmony chart and I think I may see the source of your confusion.

Even though the scale designations are correct, they could be misleading as to the way they are applied in a ii-V-i progression in melodic minor tonality. Let's take your E minor example:

The iimin7b5 chord in melodic minor actually uses the melodic minor mode starting on 4th scale degree of the root. So with a root (i chord) of E melodic minor, that's an A melodic minor scale. For an F#7b5, you start on the 6th degree of the A melodic minor (F# is the 6th scale degree of A melodic minor) scale for: F# G# A B C D E F#.

The V7b13 chord melodic minor actually uses the melodic minor mode starting on an interval of a minor 6th above the root. So with a root (i chord) of E melodic minor, that's a C melodic minor scale. (Notice that C is not found in the E melodic minor scale - weird, right?) For a B7b13, you start on the 7th degree of the C melodic minor (B is the 7th scale degree of C melodic minor) scale for B C D Eb F G A B. This is the altered scale I mentioned above.

The i chord is just an E melodic minor scale. (Whew!)

So - all of the scales are modes derivative of the melodic minor scale, but the challenge, and what makes them so different compared to say, major harmony (where ii | V7 | I can be played by using the notes found in the major scale based off of the I chord), is that the scale for each of the melodic minor chords in a ii-7b5/V7b13/i progression is in a different key. The chord designations are honestly kind of deceptive. Rather than think F#-7b5 | B7b13 | E-6, I tend to think of the mode I need to play over each chord, in this case "A melodic minor, C melodic minor, E melodic minor".

As far as the whole tone scale goes, I typically think of that for V7#5 chords. I do not know why the harmony chart you posted is equating the V7#5 with the V7b13. The b13 and #5 may be enharmonically equivalent but they typically indicate the use of different chord tones and derivative scales/modes. I almost never see or hear a b13 chord as indicating the use of a whole tone scale. In my experience, "b13" and "alt" are interchangeable with each other, but not really with "#5". I don't really see #5 used very often except for older tunes that likely pre-date the advent of melodic minor harmony.

 

[Rib 13]

My polychords are embarrassingly slow at the moment. Maybe if we have another year of lockdown (quod avertat) I'll be able to use them "on the fly". Onward, upward!

I play keyboards too which probably helps me as well...and Im now also playing Chapman Stick in which it really is coming in handy (more than it was on keyboards)

For polychords, start off with the Dom7 family of chords to get the idea..........the formula for Dom7 chord family is:
Root Chord
+
Root Chord 8va minus a whole step

So, in the key of G, think of a lower G Major triad.........think of another G Major triad an octave up and move it down a whole step (to F)........Now you have a G Major triad with an F major triad on top......that alone gives you all the notes to a Dom11 chord, in this case a G11:

1 - G
Maj3 - B
5th - D
dom7 - F
9 - A
11 - C


so if someone wants to play a G7b9, all i need to do is play a G Major chord and make that stacked chord into a F minor by flatting the A to G#....the C (the 11) technically isnt there on a G7b9 but I like knowing its there and I often choose to play it

For Maj7 family of chords and min7 family of chords, theres different formulas but the Dom7 family is a great place to get it going up to 11 using just triads

 

[Snarf]

E harmonic minor. EZPZ

 

[Michael Milner]

Can someone help me figure out what I'm missing, please?
I'm working my way through Levine's Jazz Theory, and have compiled a table - attached - based on his Chapter 3 on chord/scale theory, which covers Major Scale Harmony, Melodic Minor Harmony, Half-Whole Tone Harmony, and Whole Tone Harmony. Happy...
Until I played Autumn Leaves this evening (against iReal), and came to the B7b13.
| A-7 | D7| GM7| CM7|
|F#-7b5| B7b13| E-6| E7| etc
According to the Levine theory, that could/should be a whole tone scale. But B C# D# F sounds wrong - needs to be B C# D# E. And iReal is identifying it as a Mixolydian b9b13 scale (as elsewhere). Wah??
Is that coming from harmonic minor harmony?? And if so, how would I know which to choose?
BTW, on Stella, the whole tone scale works against the G7b13 that starts the C section.

Aaarrggghhh!

Bass Momma - I treat the G7 chord in Stella as an augmented 7th chord (playing an Eb, no D). I find that easier to picture than a dominant chord with the upper extensions modified. Concerning Autumn Leaves, I would not play a C# (doesn't fit with the F# m7b5 chord), playing a C natural does fit. When you are walking over the the F# minor ii chord, consider using the half diminished scale. In songs written in a minor key, (songs written around the Aeolian mode, like Autumn Leaves), the ii chord in the ii - v progression is a minor 7 flat 5 flat 9 chord and the dominant chord also has a flat 2 (which a pianist would likely play as a ninth). And as others have mentioned, the song is also often played in G minor (the relative minor of Bb). It actually lays very well in that key on the double bass. Hope I have helped!

 

[Rib 13]

I would not play a C# (doesn't fit with the F# m7b5 chord), playing a C natural does fit.

yup, i agree.....like diatonics and music itself, its called 'theory' for a reason....polychords, like diatonics, are just a basic roadmap and should just be viewed as a safety net or a basic place to visualize.....

Phrasing - and how a bassline sings - is everything. I do believe that folks should have a good understanding of how things should be theoretically even if the application doesnt dictate it

 

[Wasnex]

If you want to think diatonically:

V7 for harmonic minor (Phrygian Dominant is the diatonic mode) Phrygian mode with a major 3rd.
V7 for jazz/melodic minor (Mixolydian b6 is the diatonic mode) Mixolydian mode with a minor 6th.​

 

[brianrost]

What's in the original melody of the tune in that bar? Everybody is discussing the chords. Is there a G in the original melody? What chord was specified in the original sheet music? Etc.

I'm not going claim the Real Book has the 100% correct melody but what it shows for that bar is:

to

The two notes in that bar are F# and C. There's no G in the bar, so choosing the b13 tension would be strictly up to the soloist's taste. If it was me, I'd avoid it at all costs except as a passing tone to the F#.

BTW, if that melody is indeed correct, the marked B7b9 makes perfect sense, since C is the b9.

I once spoke with Rufus Reid about what to do with tensions added to the dom7 and he told me, when in doubt you can always treat it like a vanilla dom7 and avoid tensions that do not sound right to you.

 

[Bass Momma]

What a great discussion! I love this forum! Digesting... digesting....

Thanks!!

 

[K-irsh]

Sorry for the double post. I looked at your harmony chart and I think I may see the source of your confusion.

Even though the scale designations are correct, they could be misleading as to the way they are applied in a ii-V-i progression in melodic minor tonality. Let's take your E minor example:

The iimin7b5 chord in melodic minor actually uses the melodic minor mode starting on 4th scale degree of the root. So with a root (i chord) of E melodic minor, that's an A melodic minor scale. For an F#7b5, you start on the 6th degree of the A melodic minor (F# is the 6th scale degree of A melodic minor) scale for: F# G# A B C D E F#.

The V7b13 chord melodic minor actually uses the melodic minor mode starting on an interval of a minor 6th above the root. So with a root (i chord) of E melodic minor, that's a C melodic minor scale. (Notice that C is not found in the E melodic minor scale - weird, right?) For a B7b13, you start on the 7th degree of the C melodic minor (B is the 7th scale degree of C melodic minor) scale for B C D Eb F G A B. This is the altered scale I mentioned above.

The i chord is just an E melodic minor scale. (Whew!)

So - all of the scales are modes derivative of the melodic minor scale, but the challenge, and what makes them so different compared to say, major harmony (where ii | V7 | I can be played by using the notes found in the major scale based off of the I chord), is that the scale for each of the melodic minor chords in a ii-7b5/V7b13/i progression is in a different key. The chord designations are honestly kind of deceptive. Rather than think F#-7b5 | B7b13 | E-6, I tend to think of the mode I need to play over each chord, in this case "A melodic minor, C melodic minor, E melodic minor".

As far as the whole tone scale goes, I typically think of that for V7#5 chords. I do not know why the harmony chart you posted is equating the V7#5 with the V7b13. The b13 and #5 may be enharmonically equivalent but they typically indicate the use of different chord tones and derivative scales/modes. I almost never see or hear a b13 chord as indicating the use of a whole tone scale. In my experience, "b13" and "alt" are interchangeable with each other, but not really with "#5". I don't really see #5 used very often except for older tunes that likely pre-date the advent of melodic minor harmony.

Everything Scott said is 100% the most common practice for playing bebop on a minor iim7b5-V-i. The only caveat being that the m7b5 doesn’t need to be a major 9.

All the moving key centers are difficult to keep track of in real time. I would try to focus on how the notes of each scale change from the key center and lead to the next chord tone.

A dominant chord before a minor implies an altered chord a strong majority of the time. You can usually use an altered scale before a major resolution too, so you can comfortably use a D altered scale on the D7 before the Gmaj earlier in the song even the melody contradicts the scale.

If you want to seriously seriously study bebop language, you should consider getting acquainted with the way the dominant altered scale resolves to the minor and major tonic.

 

[Farrin D]

This all the way. To be nerdy, it could even be 'B7b9b13'.

And to be even more nerdy you could also play a B-alt scale (B diminished whole tone, 7th mode of the harmonic minor etc etc.) according to the theory from Chad Lefkowitz-Brown (I play sax too haha)

 

[Scott Lynch]

The only caveat being that the m7b5 doesn’t need to be a major 9.

Yes, I think using a locrian mode on the ii-7b5 chord works as well in melodic minor. I tend to see and hear the locrian mode on the ii traditionally leading to a V7b9, which usually implies a dominant (half-whole) diminished scale over the V chord. That's how it's organized in my brain, anyway.

 

[K-irsh]

Yes, I think using a locrian mode on the ii-7b5 chord works as well in melodic minor. I tend to see and hear the locrian mode on the ii traditionally leading to a V7b9, which usually implies a dominant (half-whole) diminished scale over the V chord. That's how it's organized in my brain, anyway.

Interestingly, I have had this conversation with dozens of musicians and have gotten a pretty even split. The hipper players (like you apparently) tend to like the extra color of the natural 9. A few pianists tell me they just try to avoid the question by not including the 9 at all in voicings and letting the soloist decide.
I tend to only use the natural 9 as a passing tone when I have a strong sense of the key centers because the natural 9 if ii is the major 3rd of the key center and can rub pretty hard to my ears. A lot easier to hear that note when I play on guitar/electric vs when I play upright...

 

[coyote1]

One thing that is getting old is those b13 chords notation. Because of the ambiguity of the perfect fifth in the chord that should be omitted when the b13 is in the chord.

In fact it implies that the chord has a b6 in it and is the minor third of the I minor chord coming. G in this case for AL.

Two modes can be played over that chord:
1) The fifth mode of the Eminor harmonic. B-C-D#-E-F#-G-A. It is also called the Phrygian dominant scale because it is a Phrygian scale but with a major third. Actually that minor third could be played as a blues note (#9) over that B7 in AL. So you have the choice of playing all Phrygian or Dominant Phrygian.

2) The fifth mode of E minor melodic. Same notes as above but with a natural ninth (C#) that becomes the 6th of the Emin6.

Ummm.... if you omit the perfect fifth, aren’t you left with an augmented chord? Which opens up those augmented modes? Or if you don’t omit the fifth, from there to the b13 is a minor ninth interval with all its wonderful dissonances. So there are many possibilities here.

 

[Groove Master]

Ummm.... if you omit the perfect fifth, aren’t you left with an augmented chord? Which opens up those augmented modes? Or if you don’t omit the fifth, from there to the b13 is a minor ninth interval with all its wonderful dissonances. So there are many possibilities here.

Yes that was my point about the old b13 notation. It becomes more and more standard to write B+7 to avoid the perfect fifth and the b13 as a minor ninth interval and also the ambiguity of have an altered fifth AND the perfect fifth all together.

But like I said it could be a good information to see that b13 as a b6 in the scale. That would help a beginner to avoid playing a straight mixolydian in a minor ii-v-i sequence