Don't you mean aeolean in these cases?
Aeolean = mode from 6th in = minor?
Locrian = mode from 7th = diminished?
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scales !!!!!! how do you do it ?
- Thread starter chetonetwo
- Start date
Don't you mean aeolean in these cases?
Aeolean = mode from 6th in = minor?
Locrian = mode from 7th = diminished?
I mean sure, you can know the modes in relative to the position you're in but to put it into practice in a deliberate method is never a bad thing. This is ideal IMHO but I honestly also do relative modes as well.
Ill defer some of my opinions, cause this post would get lonnnng.
Regarding fretboard freedom/mastery, a fantastic exercise is to do each scale/key all the way up each string, one string at a time. Really eliminates weak areas, especially if you mix these single-string runs with strategic crossover points to the next string
Regarding fretboard freedom/mastery, a fantastic exercise is to do each scale/key all the way up each string, one string at a time. Really eliminates weak areas, especially if you mix these single-string runs with strategic crossover points to the next string
Interval only work one way, from the lowest to the highest so that is up, never back the way, so never down.
Intervals are easy to describe because we talk of an intervals quality, the quality belongs to the function.
When talking about intervals we talk of there quality, it is the interval quality that can be a Major second or a minor second, do not confuse this with scale degrees.
A tone is a Major 2nd, a semitone is a minor 2nd......it is that simple.
Interval quality is describes as Perfect, Major, minor, augmented or diminished, keep it this simple when learning them and you will have a solid foundation to build other more intricate ideas on.
Sorry, I'm not following all of this. Intervals do work both ways. From the start of my musical theory education (about 15 years ago now, dang I'm getting old! lol), the professor had us singing intervals up and down. A fourth up (like G to C for example) sounds like "Here Comes the Bride", while a fourth down (C to G) sounds like "I've Been Workin on the Railroad". An interval is just a distance. So.. since melodies go up or down in pitch from one note to the next, I'm not sure why you would say that intervals only work one way - up - and never down??
I'm definitely not confusing intervals with scale degrees because that's the point that I was trying to make in my previous post. Each scale degree is an interval away from the root (and any other note for that matter), but scale degrees is a bigger topic than just the interval between them and the root. The point I'm trying to make is..
You can say correctly that G is the 5th of C Major, and it's also a perfect 5th up from C. However G is also a perfect 4th down from C.
Another example..
G is a minor 6th up from B. But G is also a major 3rd down from B.
So, If you pick any 2 notes and say, "what is the interval (a.k.a. "distance") between these 2 notes?", you will always have 2 answers. One is the interval up to the next note, and the other is the interval down to that next note (an octave lower). And these 2 intervals ALWAYS add up to 9.
Starting from any given note:
If you go a minor 2nd up (1 half step) from that note, you could have also gone a Major 7th down (11 half steps) from that same starting note. And either way, you would end up on the same next note (either an octave higher, or an octave lower).
Example: starting at C.. go a minor 2nd up and we are on D flat. Go back to C.. now go a Major 7th down (11 half steps) and you end up on D flat. Still the same note.
See how the 2nd and 7th add up to 9? If one is major, the other will always be minor - and vise versa.
Starting from the same note, if you go a:
m2nd up, it will be the same note as if you would have gone a M7th down (the note will be an octave lower).
M2nd up = m7th down
m3rd up = M6th down
M3rd up = m6th down
Perfect 4th up = P5th down
Tritone up = tritone down (NOTE: a tritone can also be called an "augmented 4th" OR a "diminished 5th)
P5th up = P 4th down
m6th up = M3rd down
M6th up = m3rd down
m7th up = M2nd down
M7th up = m2nd down
Like I said, this stuff is hard and confusing to talk about over the web. Maybe I misunderstood your post, but if not, I wanted to show you how intervals do go down. If they didn't, then melody would only go up in pitch.
I'll choose a scale and take it through 2 (3 if possible depending on key) in all 12 keys to a metronome. I also tend to treat each mode like it is its own scale as a opposed to be related to a core scale. I find this makes it a lot easier to pull out when playing a tune. I've also found it really helps to sing along when learning a new scale. It gets the sound in your ears and for me at least it's a lot easier to play once i can hear it.
Also a cool little exercise that a teacher showed be a while back that helps with both playing scales and with rhythmic stuff is to go up a scale in one sub division then down in another. For example go up c major in quarter notes down in eighth notes. It sounds easy enough but as you start changing the division it gets harder and harder (going up in dotted quarters and down in quarter note quintuplets for example). Anyways hope this helps.
Also a cool little exercise that a teacher showed be a while back that helps with both playing scales and with rhythmic stuff is to go up a scale in one sub division then down in another. For example go up c major in quarter notes down in eighth notes. It sounds easy enough but as you start changing the division it gets harder and harder (going up in dotted quarters and down in quarter note quintuplets for example). Anyways hope this helps.
My apologies, for the use of the term "one way", what i should have pointed out was, "intervals are constructed one way only from the lowest note to the highest never from the highest to the lowest".
They do get used both ways by association, but are never constructed both ways, this is why you may find it hard to explain a simple idea, because you are confining the use to an area of pitch.
Part of the use when correctly learned (that also includes standard terminology) is we turn them around in our heads by the association when intervals are inverted, and when doing so the two resulting intervals will add to the number nine, so we mentally invert them to see them working back by association of the quality of what we know when they are constructed going up/forward.
This is where you are getting confused...and i mean that in a constructive way, intervals are easily explained, as i posted.
Your list shows the interval and inversion, but it is still only working one way, our brain turns them round by association of knowledge, look at your list as you will see that when both are added together they come to nine as i mentioned.
When inverted,
a Major interval become a minor,
a minor become a major,
an augmented becomes diminished,
a diminished becomes augmented.
But when inverted, a fourth becomes fifth, as will a fifth become a fourth, but there quality is the same, it is still a Major interval.
This is why quality is important to understand and when talking about them why we talk of quality....something you never mentioned.
So if we invert a Major 5th it becomes a Major 4th, or invert a Major 4th it becomes a Major 5th....the quality is still Major, it has not altered.
This is why those two intervals are considered 'perfect' because when inverted there quality remains the same.
Unlike the other intervals whose quality does change when inverted
In interval training if i ask for the interval,
C - G it is always up from C, never back to the G.
A student will learn that if C -G is a 5th, it then must also a fourth from G- C regardless of pitch.
Because G -C is a 4th it will always be a 4th regardless of where we take it from. Take that C - G then move that C above the G to create a fourth....those same notes can be found in different pitches, therefore so can the interval, if you know that there is a G under the C that is because of pitch....the interval is still a 4th because C-G is a 5th.
So we associate G -C as a 4th regardless of direction in use....but not in construction.
The learned association it that intervals add up to nine when inverted.
So if i have the 6th C-A then i know that 6 + 3 = 9, so A - C is a 3rd.
But if the 6th is a Major 6th then the 3rd is a minor 3rd, because as i mentioned, when you invert a Major interval it become a minor one....and so on.
With interval training there are many skills that develop one of them is this mental association with it in both ways, but that is because of pitch not construction.
All notes can be found above and below each other, do not confine them to a single scale, let them be free flowing.
This is why interval training and there application and use is so easy to use and explain, because rather than trying to transpose notes in your head you just move the relationship to the root and use the same intervals, and on a bass that means shapes or positions to start with.
If a song is in G and it get transposed to C#, the notes change, but the relationship of the intervals is the same, so just using the intervals, rather than thinking new notes is an easy way to transpose on the fly.
I hope this helps explain what you have not, intervals are about quality, get that part right to start with and the rest is easy to explain without confusion, as i said intervals are constructed from the lowest to the highest, the rest of the information is practical use by association.
I NEVER NEVER NEVER practice scales.
I learned the scales so I know the theory ...
There are no songs I can remember where the bass player is playng a 8 note major scale ... I mean really it is not very musical or melodic ... scales are dorky sounding ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIjobdArtiA
I practice rifs and songs
The only thing that sounds worse than scales is chopsticks on piano.
Well, I guess to each his own. My work with scales often leads me to riffs, which leads me to songs.
Also, I can rip up and down the fretboard quite nimbly. Just practicing riffs will get you good -- at the riffs. Practicing everything will get you good -- at everything.
DiabolusInMusic
Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism
You need to relax man, I was just offering some insight into the OP's question. I am not out to make anybody look a fool (not that I even did that, I just said I recommend a different method) I never said your method was incorrect I just said it is going to be far more practical in the field to think in terms on intervals in relation to the tonic, not in terms of whole step or half step. Since you might find yourself caught in the middle of scale, if you have to think how many wholes or half's did I go, you can merely think how far am I from the tonic, and where do I want to go. For me it is far easier to think I am on a perfect 5th and I want to go to a minor 7th, then to think I am on the 5th and I want to go half-whole (or whatever depending on the scale)
In regards to thinking about the modes like mixolydian and aeolian (aeolian is the natural minor, locrian has a minor 2nd and a diminished 5th) I find it much easier to think of them as their respective intervals than as different starting points of the major/ionian scale. When I used your method, which is how I taught myself to learn scales, I found it much more difficult to think on my feet. The method of viewing scales as their respective intervals allowed me to perform at a higher capacity. This might not be the same for everybody, who knows you might even find this method better yourself White Beard.
I never said your method was wrong, or attempted to make you feel/look the fool, I was just offering my own insight into the OP's question.
Oh, and I wasn't touching the key with this scale talk. I was just talking intervals. There is tons of good info in terms of scale relation to key though as well now. There are actually some really good posts in here...
I've also found thinking in terms of intervals in relation to the root (instead of whole steps and half steps) can make it easier sometimes.. especially those times when you find yourself sorta lost in the music like you mentioned. I don't think I ever think of music in terms of whole and half steps anymore (not that that's right or wrong, it's just what I do). I know how many make up whatever interval, but I just think of the interval now.. whether it's going up or down.
Actually, it sounds like we all (DiablosInMusic, White Beard, and myself) understand the concepts that were are discussing here and understand the bigger picture of how the notes relate to eachother, the scales and modes and how they relate to the key, etc.., but I think especially in music "there's more than one way to skin a cat". One method or way of thinking about it isn't necessarily "better" than another, but the "best" is the one that makes it all click in your own head.
Even at a college level, I remember several assignments and tests in my music theory classes in which the professor said, "there's more than one way to analyze this correctly.. but however you choose to analyze it, just be consistent." In the most simple terms, an example would be.. don't call it C# major in one bar and the start calling it a D flat Major later on in the piece. I think analyzing what we are talking about in half steps is still correct, and so is analyzing in terms of intervals.
What matters is, in the end, you can play something that works. Sometimes I see a G7 and I just think.. play a mixolydian scale, or a blues scale, or a pentatonic.
Other times I think.. play a diminished scale over that G7, that has a cool unique sound.
Other times I think.. just play C Major and focus around G until I see a consistent accidental in the music.
Sometimes I think.. G7 is GBDF and everything else is either a harmonic passing tone, or a non-harmonic passing tone.
And sometimes (actually most of the time now), I just trust my instincts that what I'm hearing in my head goes with the harmony, and I don't think about anything but trying to get the music in my head down to my fingers.
In the end, I think someone really understands scales (and music in general) when they can explain something a few different ways, and it still makes sense whatever method they choose. At least that's how I see and it's been working out for me.
DiabolusInMusic
Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism
There is some truth in this post. I have no formal education, but I know a good chunk of theory for a chump. My guitarist is a Berklee reject and I have played with other university cats, so it has come up regularly that we explain the exact same concept two different ways.
My guitarist hates that I call it the tri-tone, he always calls it a flat 5. A pianist I used to play with would laugh out loud when I would say A sharp, not to be rude but he had just always grown up around educated musicians, so he never hears it called that, always Bb. I actually had this talk with one of my students this last week.
At the end of the day, this is music theory not science, there isn't even a correct answer just speculation on what we perceive to be right.
Groove Master
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The problem with some of the methods proposed here make you work only on the vertical aspect of playing by seeing only closed-boxes. I do prefer a much more technically demanding method based on the horizontal aspect and make you play more linear. This method makes you more aware of your intervals and help you see, understand and visual the whole neck better. This is how string bass players work their solos and walking bass lines.
Here is how I do it:
I go up in only one position from the root on the E string to the G string and then I go up on the G string up to the last note on the bass. This way you make a total workout on practicing quick shifts, which is really challenging when you try to connect smoothly your positions shifts.
I do the same by going up on the D string but not all the way up but finding the best spot to move up on the G string and up to the last note on the bass.
So on and so on for the A string, E string and B string for the 5 and 6 strings basses.
I play the scales in the cycle of fifths starting on the E string.
Run the cycle of fifths without stopping by doubling the root before going to the next scale.
You will improve your stamina also
Good luck.
