Scales

[SteveCS]

Thanks for all the time and effort you put in to trying to help me with this. It just seems too overwhelming. I’m anything but lazy when it comes to music, but I never see myself learning this. Too confusing. Thanks again though.

Lol. This is like trying to understand Chinese! Everyone has been so nice and generous offering their time and direction. You guys are really cool people. I’m pretty much a blockhead when it comes to this stuff. Guess I’ll just stick to memorizing songs and (probably) improvising in an incorrect manner. Oh well. It is what it is. Thanks again.

Everybody here wss a blockhead once upon a time. Things are only what they are at the time they are those things. The biggest hurdle is getting the bottle to ask these questions in open forum. You just passed that test, my friend.
Now, I suggest you stop doing yourself (and your musical future) a disservice and get youself a pure music theory book. Not some half-arsed 'for dummies' or 'for bassists' nonsense, but the real thing, published by a proper academic music school. Put down your bass and start reading. As you've already seen, this forum has some pretty knowledgeable, experienced and qualified people who have all the time in the world for those willing to ask genuine questions that need factual answers rather than opinion. We may not always see eye to eye on many things, but when it comes to the facts, we are a goldmine.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

You're welcome!

I recommend breaking down the information into smaller "chunks" so it is not so overwhelming. Each major scale or minor scale is only 7 notes. I think learning 7 notes in a 30 minute practice session is a realistic goal. For example the C major scale is CDEFGABC. Just spend 1 day learning those notes, and don't worry at all about the other scales. Tomorrow learn the next scale, and so forth, and by this time next month, you'll know them all.

That makes sense. That's usually how I end up learning a complex song. I break it down into several sections and don't move on until I have got the previous section down.

So, your saying to memorize/learn the notes (in order) that make up the scale and also memorize/learn where those notes are located on the fretboard? And when you said "tomorrow learn the NEXT scale", what exactly do you mean? If I am learning the major scale, it would be the same pattern, just in a different key... hence, different notes then the previous (major) scale I learn the previous day... correct?

 

[skycruiser]

Thanks. Amazon?

Yup. It's about 25 years old but hey, some things don't really need to change. Some reviews say "not for beginners" but I disagree, especially if you have some minimal musical background.

https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Scale-Manual-Harvey-Vinson/dp/0825640644

 

[bholder]

You're welcome!

I recommend breaking down the information into smaller "chunks" so it is not so overwhelming. Each major scale or minor scale is only 7 notes. I think learning 7 notes in a 30 minute practice session is a realistic goal. For example the C major scale is CDEFGABC. Just spend 1 day learning those notes, and don't worry at all about the other scales. Tomorrow learn the next scale, and so forth, and by this time next month, you'll know them all.

Yeah, what @Mushroo said, take smaller bites, you'll do fine, just let one digest a bit before taking another.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Yup. It's about 25 years old but hey, some things don't really need to change. Some reviews say "not for beginners" but I disagree, especially if you have some minimal musical background.

https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Scale-Manual-Harvey-Vinson/dp/0825640644

Thanks skycruiser, I'll check it out

 

[FrenchBassQC]

Scale notes are the alphabets (for language) that you'll use to building your musical vocabulary. You will need to be able to learn them and apply them to each of the twelve intervals of an octave. This will allow you to get very familiar with the location of the each notes for each scales on the neck and provide you with the necessary vocabulary to play most of what's required in pretty much any circumstances. The rest will be up to you to do what you want in order to build your own vocabulary for improvisation if you want to go exploring this as well.

Like others have mentioned, go at it at your own pace, do not let this become an obstacle in your mind to go forward with the journey of playing bass. This is an additional tool to help you with the building of your skills.

 

[CallMeAl]

I always found major scales to be more useful for understanding a key, especially when it comes to (nashville) numbers and transposing. But not that useful for playing.

But when it comes down to actually playing/improvising, i use other scales more (pentatonic, mixolydian, Dorian, blues, to name a few....)

 

[Mushroo]

That makes sense. That's usually how I end up learning a complex song. I break it down into several sections and don't move on until I have got the previous section down.

So, your saying to memorize/learn the notes (in order) that make up the scale and also memorize/learn where those notes are located on the fretboard? And when you said "tomorrow learn the NEXT scale", what exactly do you mean? If I am learning the major scale, it would be the same pattern, just in a different key... hence, different notes then the previous (major) scale I learn the previous day... correct?

Yes, that is EXACTLY right, and a very smart observation: All major scales have the same "pattern" or "formula." So you just start on the "tonic" or "one" (for example the tonic of Bb Major is Bb) and apply the familiar pattern. Hypothetically if there was an imaginary note called "X" you could construct an "X Major scale" by starting on X and then using the familiar pattern.

And the same is also true for minor scales: There is a minor scale formula that is the same for all minor scales; you just move the pattern around to start from different notes.

See, I don't think you are actually quite as clueless about music theory as you pretend to be. I think your questions and comments actually show a lot of insight. So don't get frustrated! Be patient with your progress, and if you get overwhelmed, come back around to familiar songs that you know and love.

 

[bholder]

Yes, that is EXACTLY right, and a very smart observation: All major scales have the same "pattern" or "formula." So you just start on the "tonic" or "one" (for example the tonic of Bb Major is Bb) and apply the familiar pattern. Hypothetically if there was an imaginary note called "X" you could construct an "X Major scale" by starting on X and then using the familiar pattern.

And the same is also true for minor scales: There is a minor scale formula that is the same for all minor scales; you just move the pattern around to start from different notes.

See, I don't think you are actually quite as clueless about music theory as you pretend to be. I think your questions and comments actually show a lot of insight. So don't get frustrated! Be patient with your progress, and if you get overwhelmed, come back around to familiar songs that you know and love.

Yeah, a whole lot of it is that there's quite a bit of very specific terminology to describe the ideas - sounds like the ideas are there, all the theory terms just give us a "common dictionary" for talking about them. Learning the mapping (terms to concepts) isn't that hard, really, it just takes a while to build up enough basic vocabulary to be able to "converse" in it.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Yes, that is EXACTLY right, and a very smart observation: All major scales have the same "pattern" or "formula." So you just start on the "tonic" or "one" (for example the tonic of Bb Major is Bb) and apply the familiar pattern. Hypothetically if there was an imaginary note called "X" you could construct an "X Major scale" by starting on X and then using the familiar pattern.

And the same is also true for minor scales: There is a minor scale formula that is the same for all minor scales; you just move the pattern around to start from different notes.

See, I don't think you are actually quite as clueless about music theory as you pretend to be. I think your questions and comments actually show a lot of insight. So don't get frustrated! Be patient with your progress, and if you get overwhelmed, come back around to familiar songs that you know and love.

Thanks again, Mushroo. I don't know. This is going to take me a while to just get the major and minor scales/notes down. I will be happy to just get those two down and perhaps learn Minor/Major Pentatonics. Daunting task for me. NOT something I am looking forward to. I will try to stay as positive as I can when learning these. Again, thanks for all the help, kind words, and encouragement.

 

[bholder]

It can seem like work for a while, but it gets easier, things will start "clicking"...

 

[Charlzm]

Hey guys/gals. I was going to start learning the major and minor scales.

Ok, so if I learn all 12 scales for both major and minor (24 total, of course), I really don't understand how they will apply to songs I will/am playing.

In other words, I can't see a song where all you do is run the scale over and over again throughout the entire song. I'm assuming that variations of the scale will be used during different parts of a song. This stuff is confusing!

Do you (yourself) strategically (and consciously) apply major and/or minor scales when playing songs or do you just memorize the notes to the songs? That is all I have done (so far) when learning songs... just memorizing the notes and then executing.

I feel like an idiot about this whole thing... like I am missing the point, entirely. Sorry if this is a terrible question. Thanks in advance for any insight.

Diatonic chords are built from the degrees of the major scale. If you know your major scale in the key of the song, you already know most of the notes that are appropriate for the chords in the song.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

It can seem like work for a while, but it gets easier, things will start "clicking"...

I know what you mean. I played guitar for 30+ years and never read a shred of music. Played everything by ear and improvised on my lead lines/solos. Those were mainly "riffs" in certain keys, not scales. Scales have always intimidated me. I pretty much wore out the major Pentatonic scale when I soloed but I threw in a variety of riffs here and there... it's the only scale I took time to learn. The first two years of learning to play the guitar were NOT fun... it was work. However, after the first couple of years I really started enjoying playing. Hope this new journey takes the same route.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Diatonic chords are built from the degrees of the major scale. If you know your major scale in the key of the song, you already know most of the notes that are appropriate for the chords in the song.

This is what I'm talking about... you may as well have been speaking Russian. LOL. "Diatonic", "degrees". What the heck is a Diatonic chord?

 

[Tommyc]

Any song you're wanting to learn will have a chord set, a chord progression. The system most commonly used is the tertiary harmony system or the building up of chords in 3rds. Harmonize each scale degree of C major with that in mind and you get c as the chord root. Now add the 3rd in the scale and you arrive at e. Now you have the diad, c and e. Now continuing, add a 3rd to the e. Going up the scale you arrive at g. Now you have formed your tonic triad, c e g. Forming chords in the same manner using the next scale degrees , your next chord the ii is d f a, then e g b, f a c, etc. Forming chords in other keys than C major requires that you observe the flats or sharps of the keys so the next key G major a fifth up from C major will always have its f sharped. You don't have to stop with triads either. 4 note and 5 note chords are built by continuing to add 3rds. So another 3rd may be added to c e g to get C major 7th or c e g b. This is enough at this point as there are some things that are best left for later until you've got a grasp of the major scale. I don't want to confuse you at this point by getting into the dominant 7th which has B flat unexpectedly. Nonetheless these chord tones will make up more of the backbone of your bass lines more than the literal scales themselves as you'll discover. Good Luck!

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Any song you're wanting to learn will have a chord set, a chord progression. The system most commonly used is the tertiary harmony system or the building up of chords in 3rds. Harmonize each scale degree of C major with that in mind and you get c as the chord root. Now add the 3rd in the scale and you arrive at e. Now you have the diad, c and e. Now continuing, add a 3rd to the e. Going up the scale you arrive at g. Now you have formed your tonic triad, c e g. Forming chords in the same manner using the next scale degrees , your next chord the ii is d f a, then e g b, f a c, etc. Forming chords in other keys than C major requires that you observe the flats or sharps of the keys so the next key G major a fifth up from C major will always have its f sharped. You don't have to stop with triads either. 4 note and 5 note chords are built by continuing to add 3rds. So another 3rd may be added to c e g to get C major 7th or c e g b. This is enough at this point as there are some things that are best left for later until you've got a grasp of the major scale. i don't want to confuse you at this point by getting into the dominant 7th which has B flat unexpectedly. Nonetheless these chord tones will make up more of the backbone of your bass lines more than the literal scales themselves as you'll discover. Good Luck!

Clear as mud! LOL.

 

[quindecima]

Make sure you learn the Pentatonic scales, especially the minor keys. Chord tones, I forgot about them, also known as Arpeggios

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Make sure you learn the Pentatonic scales, especially the minor keys.

 

[Mushroo]

This is what I'm talking about... you may as well have been speaking Russian. LOL. "Diatonic", "degrees". What the heck is a Diatonic chord?

I mentioned earlier that "diatonic" means "inside the key signature" or in other words, you don't need to use "accidental" symbols (i.e. sharps/flats/naturals outside the key signature).

For example in the song "Sunspot Baby" the E, A, and B chords are "diatonic" to E Major, because you don't need any notes outside the E Major key signature. But the E7 chord is "non-diatonic" because it contains D natural, which is "outside" the E Major key signature. Can you hear how the non-diatonic D natural has a "blues" or "honky tonk" sound?

A really simple way to understand the concept is to visualize a piano keyboard. In the key of C Major, the white keys are "diatonic" and the black keys are "non-diatonic." Does that make any sense, to have a visual metaphor?

 

[micguy]

The most impressive use of scales I ever saw was a guitarist in a punk band. It was a bunch of young kids, and at the end of the guitarist's first solo, the guitarist and I looked at each other, and one of us commented "He didn't play a single right note". We laughed, then looked at each other - hey, wait a minute! The more you play, the more the "right" notes "fall under your fingers" - you develop muscle memory that makes it easy to play "right" notes, and hard to play "wrong" ones. Between fighting that muscle memory and the fact that there are only 5 "wrong" notes, the ability to play only wrong notes is actually a very tough skill to master. This guy did it for a whole set!

Anyway, scales are a way of helping you train that muscle memory. If you practice enough, you'll learn scales (the right notes will eventually fall under your fingers) one way or another; doing it up front helps get you there a bit quicker.