Scales

[Bruiser Stone]

Pretty impressive. I’m just happy remembering what notes I have to play. Guitar was different. I improvised nearly every lead I did. I was good with guitar riffs... not so much climbing around on the fretboard of a bass. I guess I’m just too old and don’t want to be bothered with learning all this stuff. I’ll be content with just learning songs for now. I might decide to look into this stuff here and there. But I’m definitely not making it a priority.

I’m 40 with 4 kids and a law practice. I’ve decided bass is a lifelong passion I will pursue in my spare time even if I’m not that great at it or if I never join a band. I love it.

I have a bad habit of trying to ingest everything at once, then I get overwhelmed, and then I go look up an easy song, read tabs, and make myself feel better for a little while, or I GAS for gear. That’s why I make “blind” listening to songs I like my focus: I’m using what little I know in a practical way that I enjoy, and so my application is rooted in actually making music versus thinking/talking about it. I’m signed up for Scott’s Bass Lessons, and though I don’t sign in everyday, he’s a great reference for watching (again and again) things that are tripping me up.

 

[glocke1]

I gave you a step by step formula for how the chords that are familiar to most are formed. It's quite clear. Read it again.

Watch this Carol Kaye video and see what she says about chord tones in bass line playing. It's only 6 minutes long.
You know it's not a matter of lifting the lid on a head and pouring something in, you do have to make an effort to understand.

Carol Kayes approach here is really the only one that makes sense to me after all these years. Basslines and solos in general outline the harmony and thats what she's showing here.

I think way too many people get hung up on this scale/that mode approach and it causes confusion, and often times makes no sense.

take this excerpt from somewhere else for instance:

"Just a quick question for all the Jerry players out there. Do you find yourself playing over chord shapes or do you find yourself playing modally. Of course it depends on the song, but I feel as if I can focus more on playing with the harmonics between the intervals when I am playing over chord shapes. In other situations I feel as if the music is suited better playing modally and sometimes both. But just seeing if anybody had any opinions on this. Thanks!"

I've got very little formal training, only what I've gotten from lessons and workshops, but i read that and its a perfect example of someone getting hung up on the whole scale/mode thing.

Im not saying scales and modes aren't relevant, I just think people spend way too much mental energy on trying to figure out what scale or what mode works with what chord.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I hate trying to read/understand music theory. Guess I will just play through my ignorance. Thanks for your advice, though.

“People fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer.”

― Andrew Smith

Link Removed

 

[Charlzm]

This is what I'm talking about... you may as well have been speaking Russian. LOL. "Diatonic", "degrees". What the heck is a Diatonic chord?

"Diatonic: means "involving only notes proper to the prevailing key without chromatic alteration."

So, if a song is in C major, all the chords in that song (if it is a diatonic song) will be built from the degrees of the scale.

"Degree" just refers to step. First degree of a scale is the tonic (root note). Second degree is the second note; in C major, that would be a D.

Building chords is easy once you know the scale. Say you want to start on the root (the tonic) of the key for your first chord in this song. Take the root note of that chord, then add the 3rd, 5th and 7th (if making a common seventh chord) degrees. This is your C major chord.

Now, let's say you want to go to the F chord. That's the 4th note of C major (C, D, E, F - 4 scale tones). Your chord will be built from 1 (F), 3 (A), 5 (C) and 7 (E).

This is really simple stuff; don't let the jargon get in the way!

Once you know the notes of each chord, you can begin crafting bass lines that reinforce the sound of the chord you're on. Then there's voice leading, which is when you play a note from the current chord that's very close to the note of the next chord that comes in the song. If you know your scales and chord tones, this is a lot easier than if you don't.

 

[HolmeBass]

The intervals defined by the major scale define the general name of all intervals and the notes you use to build chords. The relationships can also define chord progressions free from specific key references, allowing for easy transposing.

When some says a major triad is just the root, the third, and the fifth, the terms “root”, “third”, and “fifth” are defined by the first, third, and fifth note of the major scale.

When someone says, “Play the same thing a minor third higher” the interval “minor third” is defined by the major scale.

When someone says, “It’s a simple I - IV - V chord progression” the I, IV, and V are defined by relationships established by the major scale.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

“People fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer.”

― Andrew Smith

Link Removed

“People fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer.”

― Andrew Smith

Link Removed

Exactly!

 

[SmokinJoe992]

Thanks bholder. I understand what you're saying. So, I guess when I am playing a certain song, let's say "Sunspot Baby", I would incorporate the E major scale since the song is in the key of E? Or is it in the key of E? That's another mystery to me. I researched this and again, totally confused on how to determine what key a song is in. I guess I would need more background in theory before I could quickly and easily determine this... ugh!

Also, knowing your scales will help you out when your singer tells you that he/she would like to do the song in “D” or “G” instead of “E”.

 

[IamGroot]

Lydian Augmented

 

[IamGroot]

Lydian Augmented

Absolutely know your scales, up and down the neck, in every octave and position; but also keep in mind that Paul McCartney probably wasn’t concerned about what scales he can apply when he wrote “Yesterday”.

Lydian Augmented

 

[mambo4]

@Kipp Harrington
I have been playing for over 30 years
And I am still learning new things about the major scale
and its still fun for me

the secret to traveling a long road is enjoying each (very small) step.
it's only hateful and fearful if you allow your frustration to upset you,
or the size of what you don't yet know to scare you.


so start very very small
heck just pick C major , spend a month figuring it out
and forget about needing to learn anything else
write down all the notes
google some fingerboard charts
finger it in as many ways as you can make up
play every other note (every third note, fourth note)
play it all only on one string (or two)
go up 3 notes then down two , repeat...
challenge your self to invent new ways to play those 7 notes
play it until it's not fun

then pick another scale

 

[lizardking837]

I have a bad habit of trying to ingest everything at once, then I get overwhelmed, and then I go look up an easy song, read tabs, and make myself feel better for a little while, or I GAS for gear.

You and me both...

 

[lizardking837]

On the subject, one exercise that's worked really well for me is to make 17 flash cards, one for each note. Every day (especially on days when I have only have about 10 or 15 minutes to play), I'll shuffle the cards and a find each note on the fretboard one by one.

And to combine this with Mushroo's 'One scale per day' approach whichever note I end on, I play that major scale a few times. Then the a second octave up and down, finally I'll play each triad from each scale position. It's a really good way to make the most out of 10 or 15 minute and in the last week or so it's really helped me retain and grasp theory and how chords are shaped.

 

[JohnnyBottom]

A lot of theory here... Ive played Clarinet, Bass clarinet and Eflat Contra Bass clarinet and had to transpose the sheet music i was reading in real time. ie I think add 3 flats to the score. BUT when it came down to playing bass.. I was taught 2 patterns. A major scale and a minor scale. The bass being a symmetrical instrument we can move those patterns anywhere and play off the same patterns in
any key/chord depending on where I start. I can alter those patterns easily after I understand the differences in modes or scale types, like harmonic minor, and derive the notes of any scale from those patterns. I never went about memorizing scales, but can groove, sound repetitious or non repetitious , melodic or dissonant and carry the bottom as needed. Granted I lost my sheet reading ability at this point, chord charts are a breeze.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

@Kipp Harrington
I have been playing for over 30 years
And I am still learning new things about the major scale
and its still fun for me

the secret to traveling a long road is enjoying each (very small) step.
it's only hateful and fearful if you allow your frustration to upset you,
or the size of what you don't yet know to scare you.


so start very very small
heck just pick C major , spend a month figuring it out
and forget about needing to learn anything else
write down all the notes
google some fingerboard charts
finger it in as many ways as you can make up
play every other note (every third note, fourth note)
play it all only on one string (or two)
go up 3 notes then down two , repeat...
challenge your self to invent new ways to play those 7 notes
play it until it's not fun

then pick another scale

It’s not fun from the get go. Stressful and frustrating. I’m not that type of player, I guess. Too analytical for me. I’m doomed when it comes to stuff like this. But thanks anyway for trying to encourage me.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

On the subject, one exercise that's worked really well for me is to make 17 flash cards, one for each note. Every day (especially on days when I have only have about 10 or 15 minutes to play), I'll shuffle the cards and a find each note on the fretboard one by one.

And to combine this with Mushroo's 'One scale per day' approach whichever note I end on, I play that major scale a few times. Then the a second octave up and down, finally I'll play each triad from each scale position. It's a really good way to make the most out of 10 or 15 minute and in the last week or so it's really helped me retain and grasp theory and how chords are shaped.

17?

 

[Kipp Harrington]

A lot of theory here... Ive played Clarinet, Bass clarinet and Eflat Contra Bass clarinet and had to transpose the sheet music i was reading in real time. ie I think add 3 flats to the score. BUT when it came down to playing bass.. I was taught 2 patterns. A major scale and a minor scale. The bass being a symmetrical instrument we can move those patterns anywhere and play off the same patterns in
any key/chord depending on where I start. I can alter those patterns easily after I understand the differences in modes or scale types, like harmonic minor, and derive the notes of any scale from those patterns. I never went about memorizing scales, but can groove, sound repetitious or non repetitious , melodic or dissonant and carry the bottom as needed. Granted I lost my sheet reading ability at this point, chord charts are a breeze.

I don’t understand how learning scales can help. Sounds like a waste of time. Repeating scales over and over and you never really use the actual scale in a song... or rarely. Talk about kill joy!

 

[DJ Bebop]

Hey guys/gals. I was going to start learning the major and minor scales.

Ok, so if I learn all 12 scales for both major and minor (24 total, of course), I really don't understand how they will apply to songs I will/am playing.

In other words, I can't see a song where all you do is run the scale over and over again throughout the entire song. I'm assuming that variations of the scale will be used during different parts of a song. This stuff is confusing!

Do you (yourself) strategically (and consciously) apply major and/or minor scales when playing songs or do you just memorize the notes to the songs? That is all I have done (so far) when learning songs... just memorizing the notes and then executing.

I feel like an idiot about this whole thing... like I am missing the point, entirely. Sorry if this is a terrible question. Thanks in advance for any insight.

How do you play a song now? When you memorize the song do you understand what the notes are? Like when you play the pattern you memorized do you realize what the notes or chord tones are? Like I'm playing this pattern G to D, G to D, that is a root and a fifth I'm rocking on the one chord? Then there's a chord change and now I'm rocking the C to G, C to G, I'm playing a pattern on the four chord rocking again root and fifth on the four chord? Knowing those things is also a memory aid as well. I know that when I see or play that pattern I know it's a root-fifth pattern and can replicate it every time.

 

[fishdreams]

You don't 'use' scales in a song or repertoire; they rather are traditional core tools to practice an instrument. 'Knowing' a scale doesn't mean anything, the key is to play them as beautifully, focused and even as possible in varying rhythm, tempi, phrasings. You practice them to improve your phrasing, learn to understand the notes on your instrument, as in where to find the notes without looking first; play all over the neck with even dynamics, equal speed and clean execution, connect with the instrument, and so forth. Good classical musicians keep practicing the major and minor scales all life long. This could be the (thin) book you need, it outlines the major and classic melodic minor scales in all 12 keys. for. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1562242679/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Good luck!

 

[Kipp Harrington]

How do you play a song now? When you memorize the song do you understand what the notes are? Like when you play the pattern you memorize do you realize what the notes or chord tones are? like I'm playing this pattern G to D, G to D, that is a root and a fifth I'm rocking on the one chord? then there's a chord change and now I'm rocking the C to G, C to G, I'm playing a pattern on the four chord rocking again a root and fifth on the four chord? Knowing those things is also a memory aid as well. I know that when I see or play that pattern I know it's a root fifth pattern and can replicate it every time.

I understand the notes... I just don’t analyze it to death, like “root/fifth”, “four chord”... chord tones??? I know what notes I’m playing. That’s it.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

You don't 'use' scales in a song or repertoire; they rather are traditional core tools to practice an instrument. 'Knowing' a scale doesn't mean anything, the key is to play them as beautifully, focused and even as possible in varying rhythm, tempi, phrasings. You practice them to improve your phrasing, learn to understand the notes on your instrument, as in where to find the notes without looking first; play all over the neck with even dynamics, equal speed and clean execution, connect with the instrument, and so forth. Good classical musicians keep practicing the major and minor scales all life long. This could be the (thin) book you need, it outlines the major and classic melodic minor scales in all 12 keys. for. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1562242679/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Good luck!

I just don’t get it. Scales and modes, theory, etc. If knowing a scale doesn’t mean anything, what good is that? This all seems so unnecessary. I’ve written songs on guitar (decent songs) without any knowledge of this stuff. It’s just all so technical and cold.