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School/sell us on your favorite piezo buffer/preamp setup

I-Am-The-Slime

I-Am-The-Slime

Jan 8, 2010
715
1,436
SW VA
#1
Hi all,

I'm considering a piezo only (no magnetic pickups at all) setup on a solid-body fretless build. Problem is, I know jack about piezos, or where to best source decent kit. I'm clueless both on the piezo element itself and the buffer/preamp side of things. I fear ending up with a clackity quack sound. I'm looking for a proper low end and some versatility (and "tone" of course :smug:).

I see all kinds out there, from disc piezos under a floating bridge and direct output to prefab piezo bridges with dual buffers and even MIDI outputs.

First thought is to throw money at it: Graphtech saddles and John East buffer. But I really don't know what I'm doing... What's your experience?

Thanks,

-Slime
:)
 
#2
I can offer the suggestion to use a Baggs Element under saddle system. I've done a couple of theses and love them. The output has a very slight amount of overdrive if it's cranked to the maximum level, but it's a very pleasing tone, almost hinting at tube overdrive, but at a very minimal degree.

You may want to check out my detailed build thread here:

30” Scale Compact Semi-acoustic Fretless Bass Build

If you go to the end there is a video clip of the electronics; the second version uses only the piezo as I was so pleased with the first that I didn't feel the need to incorporate a magnetic pickup.

GUfiRbo.jpg


Feel free to comment at the end of the topic if you wish.
 
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#3
Hi Slime.

I built this guy:
gPLM8br.jpg


It has an Invalid Link Removed under saddle piezo transducer, a Link Removed buffer running on a single 9v battery, and passive volume and tone controls. The PZP-1 buffer pre-amp was $49, and the AT125U was about $60, since I got it without the endpin jack and allen wrench. The saddle started life as a Graphtech TUSQ-XL Black acoustic saddle blank, which I think cost like $13. So it was a pretty low-cost build.

I currently have it strung with...something? I don't remember. They might be D'Addario nylon tapewounds, or maybe Fenders? I don't recall. I plan to soon replace the strings with some TI Jazz Flats.

I think it sounds pretty nice, but I don't currently have a good way to take a sound sample, and my crap playing wouldn't give it a fair shake anyway.

Here's the build gallery, warts and all:
 
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#5
I use Graphtech saddles and they can be used with other makes of buffers. The Hipshot bridges use these as well. My latest fretless will get a Richter piezo preamp. I am also am soon going to test a Schatten mini preamp in my five string. The Schatten unit is around $40 I think. I prefer a bridge with intonation adjustment so have stayed away from under saddle acoustic models.
 
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#6
This is my only piezo build so far:

View attachment 2109208

Four-string fretless semi-hollow half-build

It uses a piezo cable under the floating bridge, running into a Cafe Walter PZP-1, which is then blended (via a FreeWay switch) with the two mag pups, which all goes into a John East BTB-01. Works great, sounds great. :cool:

I have plans for another piezo build at some point, and will likely use the same approach.
 
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#7
I've used the K&K piezo pickups and the Ghost piezo saddles in builds. The K&K system has a more woody or organic sound to them than the ghost saddles. I think the K&K system needs to have some kind of movement of the top, I don't think they would work well in a solid body of any kind. Making a top that moved was a bit stressful and ultimately didn't work out great for me (the top started to get concave).

I have a heavily chambered fretless with tapewounds and ghost saddles that sounds pretty amazing. I used a Bartolini buffer for that build. The build I'm working on now I'm using Ghost saddles on and a Bartolini buffer, I've got some stuff to work out on that before I could give a readout. I'm having volume discrepancy issues with this bass, the piezo output is a lot hotter than the magnetic output.

The downside of piezos to me is the clack you can get if you don't play carefully with your left hand, a buffer helps with that, but considering where it's picking up the sound you'd expect some of that.
 
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#8
Slidlow said:
I use Graphtech saddles and they can be used with other makes of buffers. The Hipshot bridges use these as well. My latest fretless will get a Richter piezo preamp. I am also am soon going to test a Schatten mini preamp in my five string. The Schatten unit is around $40 I think. I prefer a bridge with intonation adjustment so have stayed away from under saddle acoustic models.
Click to expand...

Hey Slidow

No need to stay away from under saddles. Instead of permanently mounting the saddles as above - just put the saddle on a shelf and let it float so you can adjust the intonation. Here is what Rob Allen does:

DSC02707.JPG


The wire goes down into the bridge and the saddle pivots so the intonation can be dialed in perfectly. If you are enamored with the Rob Allen sound (I AM!) he uses the now obsolete Fishman Active Acoustic Natural 1 pickups and preamps. You can still find them on ebay if you are persistent.

DSC02256.JPG


I-Am-The-Slime said:
Hi all,

I'm considering a piezo only (no magnetic pickups at all) setup on a solid-body fretless build. Problem is, I know jack about piezos, or where to best source decent kit. I'm clueless both on the piezo element itself and the buffer/preamp side of things. I fear ending up with a clackity quack sound. I'm looking for a proper low end and some versatility (and "tone" of course :smug:).

I see all kinds out there, from disc piezos under a floating bridge and direct output to prefab piezo bridges with dual buffers and even MIDI outputs.

First thought is to throw money at it: Graphtech saddles and John East buffer. But I really don't know what I'm doing... What's your experience?

Thanks,

-Slime
:)
Click to expand...


Hey Slime

I have a number of piezo only basses, some with rosewood and some with conventional metal bridges. For conventional bridges, I am really partial to the RMC (Richard McLish) systems. No, not cheap, but right up there with the best, and he has a 13 pin option if you are interested in triggering midi:

BirdyCollage FINAL.png


The ETS stuff out of Germany and the GraphTech stuff is also high quality and ETS recommends the Richter Preamp as mentioned above. I have an ETS bridge and a Richter Preamp to try out on an instrument coming up.

I am starting in on wiring five prototypes I designed with rosewood bridges we are building - and I will soon be trying out the following:

Fishman made me an upgraded version of the passive saddle pickup that was used in the Martin Acoustic bass guitar for over a decade. It actually has 4 tiny crystal elements which are dialed in to my string spacing
I also have several of the Fishman Acoustic Natural 1 pickup/preamp systems, as it has been my go-to
LR Baggs made me a passive version of their acoustic guitar saddle which I will be trying
Shadow Electronics out of Germany, sent me a prototype bass pickup with matching endpin preamp
I also have a B Band Pickup/Endpin Preamp out of Finland
I have two of the Schattan Dual endpin preamps out of Canada - and Les was kind enough to send me a variety of transducers and under saddles to try - including a dulcimer pickup
Transducers are becoming more and more popular in chambered basses - as you can stick them in strategic places inside the body almost like a mic. They lessen the resonance so the acoustic top on the bass doesn't act as a drumhead.
I chose JJB over K&K and have a number of these transducers to try out
Hopefully, I will be getting a prototype saddle/pickup from Rich Barbera. He is trying to dig out one or two for me to try that he made a few years ago.

As a side note - Rick Turner is a genius when it comes to piezos and anything he has posted here on TB is worth reading. I don't think he is making his piezos outside of his own instruments these days, but it might be worth a shot if you are interested in his stuff.

So stay tuned, I will do a complete evaluation for TB, with sound clips - when I have my findings.
 
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#9
BassHappy said:
No need to stay away from under saddles.
Click to expand...
Just stating personal preference. I am aware of Rob Allen and others. I just prefer individual string intonation adjustment and individual string piezo output as well. And further to personal preference I do not like the look of acoustic saddles and much prefer an actual bridge. All personal preference. I have been using inexpensive Korean bridges lately that the Graphtech saddles drop into. Just have to drill some holes for the wires. While they are kind of like a more expensive brand, I find their contouring more visually appealing and they have a narrower spacing which I prefer. They are solid, heavy and the quality so far has been fine. For my situation it has been better to direct the large expenditure to a Richter preamp as it provides individual string output control. This is for my personal basses and my sound is more of a standard fretted bass and not the typical fretless sound more commonly sought after. I did post pictures of my five string in the LC area and also am posting new build pictures of the 6 string in process.
I should also add that Schatten has a mini buffer/preamp in single and dual channel configurations. I recently purchased one to try in my five string. They also have been providing piezos and preamps for basses.
All the best.
 
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#11
Graph-Tec ghost in a Hipshot bridge through a John East buffer is about the most foolproof way to go, IMO. If you want an undersaddle pickup, those can be tricky to get the string to string balance perfect. Either can sound great. I like Highlander coax for under saddle but I have only used a couple different ones. I would not hesitate to run that to John East's buffer as well or Highlander will sell you a buffer though the package (if it has not changed in the past few years) will be awkward for a bass cavity. Either way you may want to look at a passive treble cut to tone down the clack.
 
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