Schroeder 1212 Cab & Vertical Cab Alignment

[dave_bass5]

Not going to argue with anyone here as you all know more than me but after using a 1210R for the past 2 and a half years one thing that strikes me is that 15-20ft out front my sound is different to if im standing 3-5 ft in front of it so im not convinced tilting it back gives me the same tone as the audience are hearing. closer maybe but from walking around the room with my radio system i find the sound can change quite a bit form being close up.
Out front the mids tend to die off but it takes a certain distance for this to happen and its not just a few feet IME.

I cant get technical here and wont pretend i can, its just what my ears are telling me (i do believe they will lie to me if they want to ;-)

 

[John Le Guyader]

the port is on the angled speaker at the bottom right corner. I'm not sure if that is technically a "Rear port" though.

BTW I love the way my 1210R soundss

That is what I thought (relative to your first comment)...and I love my two 1212Ls too and Jorg's customer service, to give him a plug...almost don't need two...so far one has done the job even when I have brought both and thought I need them...and they always cut through the mix

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Not going to argue with anyone here as you all know more than me but after using a 1210R for the past 2 and a half years one thing that strikes me is that 15-20ft out front my sound is different to if im standing 3-5 ft in front of it

That's caused by room resonance modes, phenomena that all bass players should be familiar with as it affects them differently in every room. It's not so much a matter of where you're standing in relation to the speaker as the relative distances between the speaker, walls, ceiling and the listener. Those distance relationships change with the listener's position, and so does the tone.

[Out front the mids tend to die off but it takes a certain distance for this to happen and its not just a few feet IME.

This is the opposite situation to what occurs on stage with a vertical versus horizontal cab. As one gets away from the cab, and the relative distances between the cab, boundaries and listener increase, room mode cancellations subside and the low end becomes louder. This gives the impression that the mids and highs are attenuated, but that's not the case. The change is tone as one moves off stage is why a perfect stage mix often sounds boomy out front, while a perfect tone out front often sounds thin on stage. The only cure is to set the stage rig for the stage sound, and use the PA to achieve the out front sound. But that also requires a soundman who's literally on the same wavelength as the bassplayer.

 

[dave_bass5]

Bill.
Thanks for that reply. Im aware of all that but not in as much detail as you have put it. good to know the ins and outs a bit better.
My point was just that tilting the cab (and im really only talking about my 12XX's) doesn't give me a representative sound on stage. It just makes it sound different.
like you say, you need to take the room and other things in to account to get an idea of what the audience is hearing.

my bands only use a vocal PA and we dont normally have any one we can rely on out front (weddings and funtions being private gigs)but i do go through the PA, more to spread the upper mids out a bit than to have this as the main source for the room. I also wander around the room at sound check and while i know its not exactly what the audience will be hearing (as there isn't any at sound check so it will change later on in the evening) i do try and EQ for the room more than on stage.
Certainly, on a boomy wooden stage i used to back the lows off but then out front the sound would be week. Now im more inclined to leave it as it is if its sounding good halfway out in the room. A good on stage mix is important but if its a compromise i let the room win. my 1212L seems a lot less boomy than my UL212 was and the 1212L seems to work better on wooden stages IME.

I know none of this is how it should be done but it works for us.

 

[JMDT]

I though the point of Schroeder's design (and other folded horn cabs before it i.e. Acoustic 360/61) was so that you would hear the same thing on the stage as you would normally hear in the middle of the crowd. As a benifit, I though there was an increase in volume from the folded horn configuration. I think the lack of bass frequencies comes from the smaller size schroeder is trying to acheive while still making his cabinets loud. Also in order for the folded horn to project all the way to the lowest bass frequencies, wouldn't it require a cab that was exponentially larger as the tuned frequency got smaller.

So an I right, wrong, or lost somewhere in between?

 

[amos]

I can't claim to have the technical skinny, but I seriously doubt it's for space savings alone. Most likely the cab has been engineered specifically in this way in order to realize a performance objective - such as reinforcing the low end, for example.

Remember, bass is inherently omnidirectional - meaning that the drivers don't necessarily have to all be firing the same direction in order for the cab to function as it should...

MM

key word is BASS is omnidirectional; mids and highs are completely directional, and bass guitar has midrange and highend information.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I though the point of Schroeder's design (and other folded horn cabs before it ?

It's not a folded horn.

was so that you would hear the same thing on the stage as you would normally hear in the middle of the crowd

Room interactions affect all cabinet topologies in precisely the same way.

 

[JMDT]

It's not a folded horn.

So what does it classify as then and how is that different from a folded horn design? When I've spoken to Jorg before he mentioned folded horn in the same sentence as on of his cabs when I was asking him about it.

 

[dave_bass5]

I though the point of Schroeder's design (and other folded horn cabs before it i.e. Acoustic 360/61) was so that you would hear the same thing on the stage as you would normally hear in the middle of the crowd.

From my experience, based on the 1210R and 1212L its the other way around.
you get a middy sound on stage/close up that lets yo uhear yourslef very clearly but a more even tone out in the crowd.

 

[Turn Em Loose]

Bill.

my bands only use a vocal PA and we dont normally have any one we can rely on out front...

My situation exactly. My approach is to thin it out a little on-stage. I do this for few reasons: 1) I seem to think that by the time a bass tone gets through a stage mix (drums, guitars, etc.) the mids get eaten up somewhat. A little extra mid (or less bottom) helps the tone out front. 2) The more bottom end on-stage, the more the on-stage mix gets mucked up. And that snowballs to the FOH.

To bring this back (somewhat) to the OP, seems like the 1212L is made for this type of situation. "Cutting" through the mix in the usual crappy acoustics of a typical bar/club/ballroom.

Also, seems that the shape and speaker placement gives the user of a 12xx the chance to positon his/her cab to best suit his/her needs. Vertical, horizontal, angled speaker down or up. Almost like a built in tone control, no?

Hmmm....I feel a GAS attack coming on!!

 

[dave_bass5]

My situation exactly. My approach is to thin it out a little on-stage. I do this for few reasons: 1) I seem to think that by the time a bass tone gets through a stage mix (drums, guitars, etc.) the mids get eaten up somewhat. A little extra mid (or less bottom) helps the tone out front. 2) The more bottom end on-stage, the more the on-stage mix gets mucked up. And that snowballs to the FOH.

I agree about boosting the mids.
My SA450 head can boost at 100hz and i find that works really well. Out front you tend to get a fuller sound even though close to the stage (or on it) it can sound a bit too middy.
The last gig i did the lows were a bit much on the high wooden stage but out front it filled the bottem end out nicely so we lived with it.

 

[JMDT]

So is this:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

a folded horn design?

If so what does that classify a Schroeder as? I double checked his website, and he definately calls his bottom firing cabinets folded horn. Although they are also a bit different than his standard 1212

http://www.schroedercabinets.com/customcabs.htm

 

[PhatBasstard]

I can't believe no one has already done this.

See: Tech Soundsystems.

...and yes, it's modified.

 

[zac2944]

Tech Soundsystems did it well before Jorg did. Jorg's thrown plenty of work into refining it though. It actually reinforces midrange more than the lowest frequencies. It takes a much longer horn section to achieve that.

I think Jorg picked up where Tech left off. Here's a post on Harmony Central that looks like it may have been from Jorg:

Product: Tech Soundsystems Classic 212 Cabinet
Price Paid: N/A
Submitted 04/03/2004 at 09:16am by JORG
Email: JSCHRO7376 at MSN<dot>COM

Features : 10
Discontinued in 2002. 2x12 bass cabinet with horn. One woofer is front installed, the 2nd woofer is placed angled behind the horn. This gives that cabinet tremendous bottom end, fatter than a 15" woofer. And my guitarist on the opposite side of the stage is finally able to hear my bass lines clean and detailed. And that cabinet is so compact it's unbelievable.

Sound Quality : 10
The sound as described above is due to the angled 12" woofer deep and fat. Clean mids and highs can be easily achieved by adjusting your eq. Very clean sound and FAT.

Reliability : 10
Very reliable. Played ~50 gigs with it and it performs like a champ.

Customer Support : No Opinion
never needed it

Overall Rating : 9
This is one incredible cabinet that never caught on here on the US market, to bad. It's compact, fits in every car's tiny trunk and has a real punch. One trip to the club that's all you need to set up. I enjoy it very much.

Unless "JSCHRO7376" is someone else.

The Tech Soundsystems Clasis 212 looks very similar to a Schroeder 1212. Here's the only pic I could find.

If Eminence aver comes out with a Kappalite 12" I'd like to try building a cab like this. I gig with a 1212R and love it. Sometimes it can be a bit tiring on the ears, but very useful tone for a busy mix.

 

[JMDT]

I think Jorg picked up where Tech left off. Here's a post on Harmony Central that looks like it may have been from Jorg:



Unless "JSCHRO7376" is someone else.

The Tech Soundsystems Clasis 212 looks very similar to a Schroeder 1212. Here's the only pic I could find.

If Eminence aver comes out with a Kappalite 12" I'd like to try building a cab like this. I gig with a 1212R and love it. Sometimes it can be a bit tiring on the ears, but very useful tone for a busy mix.

Interesting

 

[billfitzmaurice]

So what does it classify as then and how is that different from a folded horn design? When I've spoken to Jorg before he mentioned folded horn in the same sentence as on of his cabs when I was asking him about it.

A horn, folded or otherwise, is a quarter-wavelength device. That means it only works fully to that frequency where the horn is a quarter-wavelength long. A 100 Hz tone has a wavelength of 11.3 feet.

 

[Petebass]

A horn, folded or otherwise, is a quarter-wavelength device. That means it only works fully to that frequency where the horn is a quarter-wavelength long. A 100 Hz tone has a wavelength of 11.3 feet.

And to me, that's the kicker with the Schroeder cabs. It's not enough of a horn to be a full-blown folded horn. But the horn is just big enough to accentuate the mids and low mids. That goes against the "less mids because they're not being radiating directly" scenario mentioned earlier in the thread, and I haven't checked the math, but you only need to hear the cabs for 5 seconds to hear where I'm coming from........

I liken the schroeder mini-horn to when you cup your hands near your mouth when you're yelling at someone across a football field or crowded room. Your voice gets louder because it becomes more directional, but it also sounds different tonally...........

And some Schroder cabs display this effect more than others........

 

[PhatBasstard]

I think Jorg picked up where Tech left off. Unless "JSCHRO7376" is someone else.

The Tech Soundsystems Clasis 212 looks very similar to a Schroeder 1212. Here's the only pic I could find.

It is Jorg and, if it isn't blatantly obvious, that is just another angle/shot of my cab that got lifted from another thread.

Jorg's 2x12 (1212) is somewhat larger in size than the Tech Soundsystems cab.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

But the horn is just big enough to accentuate the mids and low mids.

Not as a horn. Its too short to load lows, while the throat is too large to load mids or highs. Technically speaking it's a dual chamber bandpass design that physically resembles a horn, but it does not function as a horn.

 

[Matthijs]

I have to agree with Billfitzmaurice, but my guess is this Jorg guy is not talking about the quartel wavelenght effect of a horn. I'd say he's talking about the front-loading effect of a horn. The semi enclosed space in front of the speaker creates additional pressure which dampens/limits the maximum excursion of the speakercone. This allows you to design the cab and bassport in a way it will push the speaker further in the low frequencies. The trick is to do it in such a way that the quarterwave effect won't cause a massive lowmid bump.
Combining the downfiring speaker with one frontfiring creates loosely the effect of combining a 12'' and a 15'' speaker in a smaller package.