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Scooping the Mids?

#21
JTE said:
Well, it seems Sadowsky's talking about a pretty specific low-mid here. Most of the time when others discuss "mid-scoop" we're talking about the "Smiley Face" EQ that is a much broader band of cutting. And that'll kill a bass's place in the mix. Specifying that 300 Hz area makes a lot of difference.

jte
Click to expand...

Exactly. A Smiley-face metal scoop won't work in anyone's favor (it makes basses disappear and it makes guitars painful to listen to at concert levels). A slight cut at a specific frequency can really clear things up, though. Roger says 300 Hz; I like to cut just a bit of the low mids on my amp, and I usually boost at 800 Hz a bit on my bass. It gives me a good, clear, punchy sound to work with... I change my tone with my left hand placement (I'm a lefty, so right hand placement for most of y'all), so I don't have to fiddle with any knobs between songs.
 
#22
JTE said:
Well, it seems Sadowsky's talking about a pretty specific low-mid here. Most of the time when others discuss "mid-scoop" we're talking about the "Smiley Face" EQ that is a much broader band of cutting. And that'll kill a bass's place in the mix. Specifying that 300 Hz area makes a lot of difference.

jte
Click to expand...
Yeah, but I would much rather cut 300 if it's annoying than boost 40 and 4k to attenuate it. As a former mid-scooper from decades back, I kind of get where he's coming from, but as I played in bigger bands and it got harder and harder to hear the bass in a mix, I have come to appreciate all those "ugly" low mid freqs between 200 and 500 hz. To me, they give the tone a thickness that allows it to be felt AND heard. Maybe if you're a solo bassist like Marcus Miller you may not want those freqs to be predominant, but most of us don't have the luxury of playing in a band where the rest of the guys don't have the balls to turn up louder than we do ;)

And nowadays, cutting through a mix is the very last thing I want to do. I want to beat and punch my way through a mix!
 
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#23
Glad to see that a few people don't agree with Roger Sadowsky's ideas on midrange. That is one reason I have yet to touch one of his instruments.

I have always looked at bass playing in terms of how I will be heard in the mix. A thick midrangey bass, I feel, gives a song a certain punch to it that allows the song to move along. Kinda like the bass playing an 1/8th note constant line while the guitars play a 1/4 note straight measure - the bass creates the movement of the song. If there is too much low end and not enough midrange in that tone, it almost seems pointless to play the bass notes. People can't really tell what the hell I am playing with out midrange anyway. I don't want people to hear stage rumbling lows and clacky bass tones coming from me.

Did anyone ever complain that Duff McKagen's bass tone is literally the same level if not higher than Slash's guitar tone? Does anyone think his bass lines distracted us from that memorable guitar line on "Sweet Child O' Mine? Did anyone notice how much midrange was in that tone? Just saying!

I must be nuts, but a slap tone with a flat midrange setting on the amp/bass, sounds so much better to me than a scooped slap tone. Just more twang and meat to smack on the bass. Solo projects - I can understand scooping the mids, but anywhere else - do you want the guitarists to run all over your hard work? I sure as hell don't!
 
#24
I still fail to understand the purpose of mid scooping... How can it be good for slapping if the main frequencies you want to hear is the midrange (a la les claypool's tone). Otherwise you just hear rumbling bass and string clank against the fretboard.

Another thing you said was that mid scooping is good for solo projects and here i am again, missing the sense. Isn't the lowmids the frequency you'd need to really sound out in a project when you're supposed to be heard the most?
 
#25
BullHorn said:
I still fail to understand the purpose of mid scooping... How can it be good for slapping if the main frequencies you want to hear is the midrange (a la les claypool's tone). Otherwise you just hear rumbling bass and string clank against the fretboard.

Another thing you said was that mid scooping is good for solo projects and here i am again, missing the sense. Isn't the lowmids the frequency you'd need to really sound out in a project when you're supposed to be heard the most?
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I'm with you. But many slappers just want rumbling bass and string clank, and solo bassists will sometimes go for a prettier tone than mids give you.
 
#27
In a solo project. You can have just about any tone and be heard. Most solo projects are Drums, bass and maybe some keyboard goofiness. If there are guitars involved, many times they are not dominating in volume. The other key here is that the bass is usually turned up to a much higher level, so some of those unorthodox/mid-scooped tones will be heard regardless. On the other hand, the bass may not even need to be louder, the absense of guitars and drummers pounding away in the frequencies a bass player wants to showcase are no longer being masked by the other members. It's not like that for all solo projects or what not. But if you think Victor Wooten or Marcus Miller, there is more mid scoop included in their tones so all of those harmonics and tapping techniques can "breathe" in the band situation. More clarity and what not. In all honesty, I can't stand listening to these guys, I rather listen to a bassist making a rock song groove. Too much show-boating.
 
#28
CliftonBonney said:
Thanks!! You cleared it up for me.

The reason I was asking is because I was on Sadowsky.com. There's an interview there of Roger Sadowsky and he talked about scooping the mids. If I remember correctly, he said that scooping the mids gives you a better sound. He said that if you don't scoop the mids your sound will be too boomy. He said it will sound great to the player but horrible to the audience.

I'm pretty sure this is what he said. Anyway, I tried it out and got the opposite effect. It seems that when I scoop the mids, my sound becomes too boomy. When I increase the mids my sound becomes clearer. This seems to corroborate what you two are saying.

I hope I didn't misquote Roger. I'll have to go back and check.
Click to expand...

lol, you said 'he said' like 234232 times:hiding:
 
#31
standupright said:
i'd love to hear some recordings from opposite sides of the spectrum to gauge why it seems the majority here boost the mids rather than cut.

anyone have any examples?
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I don't think the majority boost mids. I think the majority leave their amps set flat, and if they do boost mids, it's because their amp has a natural scoop in it. I used to have to boost mids with my SWR amp, for example.
 
#32
IMO, the secret of having a well balanced bass tone is checking the tone with the bass drum. I mean, when they play at once, they should sound as if they were one. It is not a matter of mids. It's a matter of tonal cohesion (and, of course, of playing tight and grooving perfectly together).

Our purpose, as bass players, and unless we play our bass as a solo instrument, is to be "there", not essentially to "cut through". That's not the same at all. Basically - and with a slice of exaggeration - cutting through often leads to a bass that plays with a whole band far away behind.

Boosting or cutting the mids has, of course, much effect on what your final front-end tone will be, most especially if you tweak the EQ on an active bass. And many times, this happens because our first goal is to hear ourselves on stage.

But the final result is on the PA, on the front-end. We should never forget that. What I experienced is that checking tone with the bass drum is _THE_ best way to be heard, no matter the bass, no matter the amp, no matter the tweaking.

Just IMO, once again.
 
#33
JimmyM said:
I think the majority leave their amps set flat, and if they do boost mids, it's because their amp has a natural scoop in it. I used to have to boost mids with my SWR amp, for example.
Click to expand...

:eek: Revelation! :eek:

My tendency to boost 300-500 hz was arrived at when my rig was an SWR WM15...I guess i was also compensating for a built in smiley face EQ

Now that I'm using GenzBenz+ Bergantino, and play mostly flat.
 
#34
on my ampeg ba115hpt, i have my style on 2 which takes away 12dB @ 500Hz. the manual shows that this is like a straight line with slight curve in middle.
on the 3 band EQ i have bass and treble on 8 (5 is flat).
the mid is at 5, flat.

from these settings would i have to reduce the mid EQ to about 2, to be properly mid scooped? or is this mid scooped enuff?

just curious
 
#35
sungjin891118 said:
on my ampeg ba115hpt, i have my style on 2 which takes away 12dB @ 500Hz. the manual shows that this is like a straight line with slight curve in middle.
on the 3 band EQ i have bass and treble on 8 (5 is flat).
the mid is at 5, flat.

from these settings would i have to reduce the mid EQ to about 2, to be properly mid scooped? or is this mid scooped enuff?

just curious
Click to expand...
If it sounds good it is.
I just looked at my parametric and noticed that I have reduced 300hz by about 3-4db, with the bandwidth set very narrow. This is to reduce the boominess in my shedding area. Sounds great, go figure.
 
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