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Scooping the Mids?
- Thread starter CliftonBonney
- Start date
To cut frequencies from the middle range(s)out of one's sound. Picture a graphic EQ- now adjust the sliders so they form a smile; voila: scooped mids.
It basically mean to cut out most of the middle frequencies in the sound and to boost the lows and highs. The middle is the body of the note, what you hear. Bass is more or less mids as far as it's overall sound in a band (drums and percussion are the 'bass' as it were).
Scooping mids is often inexplicibly used by metal bassists. Not sure why, seeing as you can't hear them too well. Slap players seem to love it as well; works better for slapping.
Scooping mids is often inexplicibly used by metal bassists. Not sure why, seeing as you can't hear them too well. Slap players seem to love it as well; works better for slapping.
Thanks!! You cleared it up for me.
The reason I was asking is because I was on Sadowsky.com. There's an interview there of Roger Sadowsky and he talked about scooping the mids. If I remember correctly, he said that scooping the mids gives you a better sound. He said that if you don't scoop the mids your sound will be too boomy. He said it will sound great to the player but horrible to the audience.
I'm pretty sure this is what he said. Anyway, I tried it out and got the opposite effect. It seems that when I scoop the mids, my sound becomes too boomy. When I increase the mids my sound becomes clearer. This seems to corroborate what you two are saying.
I hope I didn't misquote Roger. I'll have to go back and check.
The reason I was asking is because I was on Sadowsky.com. There's an interview there of Roger Sadowsky and he talked about scooping the mids. If I remember correctly, he said that scooping the mids gives you a better sound. He said that if you don't scoop the mids your sound will be too boomy. He said it will sound great to the player but horrible to the audience.
I'm pretty sure this is what he said. Anyway, I tried it out and got the opposite effect. It seems that when I scoop the mids, my sound becomes too boomy. When I increase the mids my sound becomes clearer. This seems to corroborate what you two are saying.
I hope I didn't misquote Roger. I'll have to go back and check.
I'm going to assume you misquoted Roger because I can't believe someone with such a successful bass-building business saying that. Clifton, you are right, and if Roger said that, he's wrong.
I watched that interview (there's a link on Sadowsky's frontpage) and I understood it like CliftonBonney originally did. You hear it about perhaps 5 minutes from the end of the interview when he describes the Sadowsky sound. Very nice video otherwise, recommended.
His preamp eq features bass and treble boosters, with frequency centers at 40 and 4000 Hz (IIRC). The bass knobs affects frequencies up to 300 Hz and the treble reaches down to the same frequency. Boosting both will create a scooped sound with a cut at 300 Hz, and Roger claims it cleans up the sound and makes it less muddy. Anyway, that's pretty much the opposite of what people say here you should do to get a clean sound that cuts through. I'm surprised about this too, but I usually don't like to have too much of those low mids in my sound because they make the sound a bit too clonky for me.
His preamp eq features bass and treble boosters, with frequency centers at 40 and 4000 Hz (IIRC). The bass knobs affects frequencies up to 300 Hz and the treble reaches down to the same frequency. Boosting both will create a scooped sound with a cut at 300 Hz, and Roger claims it cleans up the sound and makes it less muddy. Anyway, that's pretty much the opposite of what people say here you should do to get a clean sound that cuts through. I'm surprised about this too, but I usually don't like to have too much of those low mids in my sound because they make the sound a bit too clonky for me.
Thanks Deacon. Now I don't feel like too much of an idiot. I actually took the time to transcribe his interview on that portion. Here it is. He's talking about his preamps, the Sadowsky sound, and why people say it sounds like a fender on steroids.
"The effect of our preamp is there are two wide bands of boost for the treble and the bass. The frequency centers are 40 hz on the bass, 4k on the treble. Where they dont overlap is right around 300 hz your lower mids. So the effect is if you are going to boost treble and bass and nothing is happening in the mids you are basically attenuating the mids by default. And what that does is produce a scoop a sound thats scooped in the lower mids and thats very tight with a lot of definition. And so I think its that which is really contributed to people saying how well my instruments cut through either live or in the studio. Boosting mids sounds great to the player makes you sound really thick and fat and it sounds great in your monitor when youre on stage but the truth is in my opinion and thats all it is I feel that by boosting mids you make your bass sound muddier and you work against the ability of the bass to sit well in the mix. So almost all the other bass builders and bass preamps have mid circuits and also have cut and boost control but Ive never felt the need to change what we are doing preamp-wise."
Any thoughts?
Well the mids is more than that 300 Hz low mid spot, so I guess when people here say boost the mids they often mean higher mid frequencies, e.g. between 500 and 2000 Hz. I don't like cutting the bass because it makes the sound too clonky with the volume turned up, so if I'm to sacrifice any frequencies, it will be the lowest mids just above the bass register. I just watch out not to scoop the sound too much as that will IMO make the sound too hollow and undefined.
I've tried to boost 300-400 Hz and I have never gotten a good sound when doing that. My last amp also had a mid knob centered at 400 Hz and it sounded awful boosted.
I've tried to boost 300-400 Hz and I have never gotten a good sound when doing that. My last amp also had a mid knob centered at 400 Hz and it sounded awful boosted.
FWIW, my experience - I rarely boost mids, but I never cut them. I prefer to run everything flat, but will of course fine-tune to the room (which, if anything, most often involves cutting lows and mildly boosting mids).
My Sadowsky sounds ridiculous, and certainly cuts! In general, though, I've found that scooping mids actually kills your chances of blending with/cutting through the mix.
My Sadowsky sounds ridiculous, and certainly cuts! In general, though, I've found that scooping mids actually kills your chances of blending with/cutting through the mix.
Hey, he's Roger Sadowsky, he's the biggest of the Fender-on-steroids guys, and his preamp is very well-liked by those who have it. I still think he's wrong about mids, though. If I don't have mids, I don't hear myself in a mix, and I don't think it sounds particularly good in a mix, either.
I would tend to agree with Roger on this. Boosting the midrange DOES help the bass cut through the mix, and it DOES add a certain clarity. However, it does not typically serve the song. Generally, the bass needs to SIT in the mix, not cut through. Personally, I think that the 500hz range sounds pretty bad. It takes up all the sonic space that the guitars occupy.
I've yet to try actually scooping the mids (VPF) with my gig, but I imagine it might not sound too bad.
Just a bit of scoop will add you some low-end and thanks to the treble, not sound too muddy. Makes sense to me.
Just a bit of scoop will add you some low-end and thanks to the treble, not sound too muddy. Makes sense to me.
I boost the mids on stage quite a bit so I can hear myself better in the mix and roll off some lows to take out the boom. I think with different rooms and their inherent acoustics, it's really difficult to guess what it sounds like out front to the audience. I pray the soundman covers that.
It cuts through very well (I like my bass to cut through and be in-your-face kinda' like!)
I'm with jimmy.
I think boosting somewhere 300-500 enhances the "bassieness" of my sound in a way that helps articulate the fundamental very well, in a range where the other instruments wont intefere.
boosting the "bass" knob rarely results in a musically articulate bass increase.
however, I think detailed absolute proclamations about EQ are moot without context: the above things I concluded in a 9 piece Latin band, where a lot of 'modern' bass tone was not appropriate.
I think boosting somewhere 300-500 enhances the "bassieness" of my sound in a way that helps articulate the fundamental very well, in a range where the other instruments wont intefere.
boosting the "bass" knob rarely results in a musically articulate bass increase.
however, I think detailed absolute proclamations about EQ are moot without context: the above things I concluded in a 9 piece Latin band, where a lot of 'modern' bass tone was not appropriate.
Well, it seems Sadowsky's talking about a pretty specific low-mid here. Most of the time when others discuss "mid-scoop" we're talking about the "Smiley Face" EQ that is a much broader band of cutting. And that'll kill a bass's place in the mix. Specifying that 300 Hz area makes a lot of difference.
jte
jte
