Recently I have became obsessed with finding the prefect bass to get the classic Europe 72 Phil Lesh tone. In my dead cover project I mainly use my 70s pbass style guyatone short scale. I got flats on it and does a pretty good job capturing the essence of Phil’s tone. I know Phil used a his alembic modified starfire bass with quadrophonic pickups among a million other things. Feels like nowadays there are better ways to get that sound without doing crazy mods like that. My first instinct is to get a starfire and see where it gets me, then throw some alembic style humbuckers and an alembic style bridge, see where that gets me, then throw in a parametric eq. How would you all approach this endeavor?
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Searching for the Phil Lesh Sound
- Thread starter Charlicinco
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- grateful dead phil lesh
In the height of experimental electronics , instrument modifications and monitoring systems. I would just be happy with a good bouncy bass tone to get you there.
A relatively simple, fat , round but articulate tone will get you there, and that can be accomplished any number of ways, without anything too pricey or exotic......any decent 2 pickup bass with well worn rounds and careful eq'ing (2 bands of adjustable mids) can get you to a point where you won't be able to tell the difference with just your ears. I don't believe a Starfire or an Alembic "style" (or even an authentic Alembic) bridge will provide any worthwhile difference to your ears. That said, if you will enjoy the gear tweaking and your wallet doesn't mind, and/or if you want the look for your band, that's a whole 'other thang 
As someone who modded his '67 Guild Starfire with an 'authentic' brass Alembic bridge, tailpiece, and nut, I can tell you it's a major upgrade with better sustain and action that gets into Godfather/Big Brown territory, even with a single stock 14k output Bisonic pickup with no mods. It's strung with 70s/80s nos Maxima flats for extra vintage mojo.
That through my Fender Dual Showman (or Sunn 200s, or Alembic F-1X preamp) and dual 1x15 JBL K140 cabs, gets 'in the ballpark' for late 60's / early 70's Phil tone.
Of course, only Phil can truly sound like Phil. He'd sound great playing through a sack of potatoes.
That through my Fender Dual Showman (or Sunn 200s, or Alembic F-1X preamp) and dual 1x15 JBL K140 cabs, gets 'in the ballpark' for late 60's / early 70's Phil tone.
Of course, only Phil can truly sound like Phil. He'd sound great playing through a sack of potatoes.
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Both Phil and Mike Gordon have fancy bass and complex amplification and I always expect to hear a fusion sound like Haslip Marcus etc .. but somehow before weird effects their basses are meat and potatoes sounding to me. Head scratcher . When I was subbing for a local Dead cover band. I got by with my Fender PJ and my Tune bass. A week ago I just used my StingRay and that liked it. I bring in a compressor a recerb.,delay and enveloped filter. They have an Anpeg SVT
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I play in a Dead cover band and when we first started I was looking into Phil's sound too. I think that picking a Guild Starfire with Pyramid flats through a tube head with lots of clean headroom and a big cab (or two) will get you most of the way there. TBH You're probably not going to lay out thousands of dollars for MacIntosh poweramps and Alembic pres with massive JBL speakers or a modded bass with quadrophonic pickups so I wouldn't worry too much about gear.
The real hard part of copping Phil's tone is figuring out his technique. He never really played a song the same way twice, so learning his approach to arpeggiation, picking, rhythm and overall improvisation will get you far closer to Phil's sound than the gear. I'd recommend reading his book "Searching for the Sound" to get some insight into his approach to playing.
The real hard part of copping Phil's tone is figuring out his technique. He never really played a song the same way twice, so learning his approach to arpeggiation, picking, rhythm and overall improvisation will get you far closer to Phil's sound than the gear. I'd recommend reading his book "Searching for the Sound" to get some insight into his approach to playing.
I love Phil’s sound and my peavey fury IV using a pick and favoring the neck pickup nails his sound to me. That bass uses the active cirrus pickups and favoring the neck pup to me sounds just like it with some mids and bass from the active preamp.
Man europe 72 made me really “get” the dead. Some uh… spores helped with that too. Get you a guild starfire, I think theres a 68 for sale in the classifieds (which looks soo sooo sick btw). The amp is a huge part of it to. I got a good lesh sound with my sunn 200s so one of those will work
A stock Guild Starfire (original or reissue) loaded with a set of Bi-Sonic pickups strung with flats and played with a pick will get you in Phil's ballpark. A Fender Showman or Bassman through a coupla 15s would work (on a smaller scale) for amplification. Playing technique and creative imagination will probably be the lynchpin for you, though.
Phil has olayed many different basses and, apart from the graphite necks (which sounded like Phil on graphite), mostly Phil sounds like Phil. A lot of the dynamics Phil uses begin with playing with an incredibly soft, light touch. Once you get that sorted out even the slightest dig in gets you a whole different sound and attack.
Why not just save your money and buy an Alembic? Just throwing "stuff" at any bass trying to get a certain sound can become expensive. Plus, if it doesn't meet your expectations you are out the money you've already spent on the failure.
It takes a whole of saving to buy an Alembic....
A heavy pick and feather light touch will get you mast of the way there.
I played a recent import Starfire strung up with Chromes that was really close to nailing the sound even with the stock electronics, but i suspect that adding a preamp would put it over the top.
I played a recent import Starfire strung up with Chromes that was really close to nailing the sound even with the stock electronics, but i suspect that adding a preamp would put it over the top.
Here's a formula that has worked for me:
1. short scale bass
2. flatwounds
3. pick, pluck closer to neck
4. stay away from the downbeat of each measure (unless that becomes formulaic)
5. play in the upper octaves (7th fret and above, keep off the E string) - when you play lower, it has more impact
6. play lots of chord tones rather than just roots
7. fat low frequencies, emphasize mids (variably if possible with a low-pass filter)
8. plop the notes right where they belong
9. LISTEN to the whole band
Since you've got a short scale, I think you're a significant part of the way there. I am thinking specifically of Phil's early '70s sound, which is also my favorite time period. I have listened to the Dead since the early 90s - but always hated playing Dead songs because it didn't sound right to me, playing like a "normal" bassist. In the past few years I've dedicated time not just to listening, but trying to analyze Phil's playing. To me, 98% goes against the "rules of good bass playing"!!!
1. short scale bass
2. flatwounds
3. pick, pluck closer to neck
4. stay away from the downbeat of each measure (unless that becomes formulaic)
5. play in the upper octaves (7th fret and above, keep off the E string) - when you play lower, it has more impact
6. play lots of chord tones rather than just roots
7. fat low frequencies, emphasize mids (variably if possible with a low-pass filter)
8. plop the notes right where they belong
9. LISTEN to the whole band
Since you've got a short scale, I think you're a significant part of the way there. I am thinking specifically of Phil's early '70s sound, which is also my favorite time period. I have listened to the Dead since the early 90s - but always hated playing Dead songs because it didn't sound right to me, playing like a "normal" bassist. In the past few years I've dedicated time not just to listening, but trying to analyze Phil's playing. To me, 98% goes against the "rules of good bass playing"!!!
I could be wrong, but I don't think there was any use of the Quadraphonic pickup on the Europe 72 tour. As far as I understood, that pickup was mostly utilized with the "wall of sound" system that they used to tour around the US, with that pickup making it possible to give each string it's own giant column of speakers. My guess is that Europe 72 (given their limitations in terms of how much gear that could bring with them) was likely "just" the two "normal" Alembic pickups, in combination with the filter electronics, being used through one of his modified Fender Showman heads.
My 3 main basses -- 1970 Guild Starfire with Bisonics and filter electronics, 1970 Guild M-85 all stock/passive with Bisonics, and a 1962 Gibson EB-0 with Bartolini and Joe Barden pickups and filter electronics -- all do a good job at hitting Phil tones when played through an amp with a Fender-inspired tone stack. So you don't NEED Bisonics (proven by the EB-0) and you don't NEED a filter preamp (proven by the M-85).
If you're just looking to get a ball-park tone in a live setting but also within a reasonable budget, I would recommend keeping an eye out for a Korean reissue Starfire bass (even though the reissue Bisonics aren't very faithful reproductions, they are nice articulate single coils in their own right), stringing it up with flatwounds, and playing through a Fender-inspired amp; a Yamaha PB-1 preamp is an excellent great budget option there. Then play with a heavy pick over the neck pickup and work in a good amount of staccato notes and syncopation. After all of that, if you still have a couple hundred bucks left over, get a set of JTEX Distiller filters to drop in your bass. They're my favorite resonant filter preamp and what I've settled on after trying multiple ACG/JohnEast and Alembic preamps over the years.
Obviously this is very simplified answer, but it will get you into some clear Phil-esque sounds for a live performance context, without requiring thousands and thousands of dollars to be invested.
My 3 main basses -- 1970 Guild Starfire with Bisonics and filter electronics, 1970 Guild M-85 all stock/passive with Bisonics, and a 1962 Gibson EB-0 with Bartolini and Joe Barden pickups and filter electronics -- all do a good job at hitting Phil tones when played through an amp with a Fender-inspired tone stack. So you don't NEED Bisonics (proven by the EB-0) and you don't NEED a filter preamp (proven by the M-85).
If you're just looking to get a ball-park tone in a live setting but also within a reasonable budget, I would recommend keeping an eye out for a Korean reissue Starfire bass (even though the reissue Bisonics aren't very faithful reproductions, they are nice articulate single coils in their own right), stringing it up with flatwounds, and playing through a Fender-inspired amp; a Yamaha PB-1 preamp is an excellent great budget option there. Then play with a heavy pick over the neck pickup and work in a good amount of staccato notes and syncopation. After all of that, if you still have a couple hundred bucks left over, get a set of JTEX Distiller filters to drop in your bass. They're my favorite resonant filter preamp and what I've settled on after trying multiple ACG/JohnEast and Alembic preamps over the years.
Obviously this is very simplified answer, but it will get you into some clear Phil-esque sounds for a live performance context, without requiring thousands and thousands of dollars to be invested.
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Europe 72 was the entry point for me about 10 years ago. They are my favorite band and I still haven’t explored all the eras. I love the E72 tones - Brown Eyed Women is that tone.
I used to own a USA Guild Starfire 2 (1998) with two Hammond Darkstars. Selling it because I couldn’t get used to the neck after a few weeks is in the *** was I thinking file I have sitting here. I’ll never find another one, and man do I wish I had it now because my band mates are slowly getting into some of their songs.
Anyway, I use a Nash J or P with Pyramids. Found an odd combo of a Milkman half and half and Genzler NU212 gets a really sweet mid tone that is in that ball park. Must be the flats, the tone stack of the Milkman, and the cool ceramic 2x12.
I used to own a USA Guild Starfire 2 (1998) with two Hammond Darkstars. Selling it because I couldn’t get used to the neck after a few weeks is in the *** was I thinking file I have sitting here. I’ll never find another one, and man do I wish I had it now because my band mates are slowly getting into some of their songs.
Anyway, I use a Nash J or P with Pyramids. Found an odd combo of a Milkman half and half and Genzler NU212 gets a really sweet mid tone that is in that ball park. Must be the flats, the tone stack of the Milkman, and the cool ceramic 2x12.
