Double Bass Section playing

[Andy Mopley]

Hi all

does it follow that where divisi with cellis, for the same part, bowing must match OR can the cellis and DBs play the same part using different bowing?

Regards to all, and thank you.

 

[Lee Moses]

"Must" is a strong word; but IM (amateur) E, the two sections will generally try to match bowings when playing the same part. And that usually means the basses follow the celli.

 

[Andy Mopley]

"Must" is a strong word; but IM (amateur) E, the two sections will generally try to match bowings when playing the same part. And that usually means the basses follow the celli.

Ok, thanks Les. This is my understanding as well. Just validating.

 

[PaulCannon]

It's generally good to match, but sometimes there are reasons to do something else.

A few exceptions I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Bass bows are slightly shorter than cello bows, and significantly heavier. In some cases, a cellist may cram a few extra notes into a single slur which would be very uncomfortable for a bass player.

2. The way the unison passage ends. For example, the celli need to quickly switch to pizzicato while the basses need to be at the tip for whatever reason. In such a case, the celli would need to end with an up bow, and the basses with a down bow.

3. If the bass section is mostly or entirely German-bow, there are some specific bowings (i.e. reverse curve string crossings) which you may want to avoid.

4. Irreconcilable differences of opinion. While highly recommended, there's no law saying you have to follow whatever idiotic bowing the principal cellist came up with. As a section leader, you have the right to offer a better option for your colleagues.

 

[AGCurry]

3. If the bass section is mostly or entirely German-bow, there are some specific bowings (i.e. reverse curve string crossings) which you may want to avoid.

Paul, what is a "reverse curve string crossing?"

 

[PaulCannon]

Paul, what is a "reverse curve string crossing?"

A string crossing which follows the inverse curve of the bridge. For example, a low E string on down bow, followed by the open G string with an up bow.

At a certain speed, this is tricky for both French and German bow. However, the nature of the German bow hold requires significantly more arm movement to achieve the same result.

 

[Neil Pye]

It's generally good to match, but sometimes there are reasons to do something else.

A few exceptions I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Bass bows are slightly shorter than cello bows, and significantly heavier. In some cases, a cellist may cram a few extra notes into a single slur which would be very uncomfortable for a bass player.

2. The way the unison passage ends. For example, the celli need to quickly switch to pizzicato while the basses need to be at the tip for whatever reason. In such a case, the celli would need to end with an up bow, and the basses with a down bow.

3. If the bass section is mostly or entirely German-bow, there are some specific bowings (i.e. reverse curve string crossings) which you may want to avoid.

4. Irreconcilable differences of opinion. While highly recommended, there's no law saying you have to follow whatever idiotic bowing the principal cellist came up with. As a section leader, you have the right to offer a better option for your colleagues.

All true, but I normally have a sit-down session with the principal cello before the first rehearsal of a new piece to iron out any idiotic bowing. There are phrases where the bowing diverges in any piece, but when the majority of the piece is doubling the cellos it pays to look at modifying bowing of both parts so that bowing is as consistent as possible. Ask the cellos politely to change on occasion and it all works out!

 

[eerbrev]

I'd add also that your leeway to differ often depends on the orchestra, the conductor, and the principal cellist.

I've been in situations where I needed to do exactly what the principal cello wanted and I really had no options (such is life sometimes as a ringer for small regional orchestras), and I've been in situations where I could do whatever I wanted so long as I got the notes and it sounded good.

There are many ways in which the bass just doesn't function like the rest of the string instrument family - We've always been the odd duck out. The Bass is super resonant, it's got a tiny bow in comparison to its size, etc etc. Sometimes you need to know what effect the other string players are going for, and you have to use the right technique to make that happen on the bass, instead of what they're doing on upper instruments. I personally find we can use retakes to a much better effect because of our resonant qualities, for example. We also, in an octave situation, must often play shorter than the celli are for the sound to be correct.

 

[LouisF]

Klaus Stoll gives a good example of the "curve" issue when he advocates (@3.50 below) starting the Scherzo to the Beethoven 5th DOWN BOW (tell that to your local cellist!):

 

[neilG]

Klaus Stoll gives a good example of the "curve" issue when he advocates (@3.50 below) starting the Scherzo to the Beethoven 5th DOWN BOW (tell that to your local cellist!):

I did that bowing in the finals of an audition once. The conductor gave me poopie about it, so I played it the other way. Got the job, but I've never been able to convince a principal cellist to do it.

 

[Neil Pye]

"Must" is a strong word; but IM (amateur) E, the two sections will generally try to match bowings when playing the same part. And that usually means the basses follow the celli.

This is (mostly) true, but in all pieces there are moments when the basses HAVE to do something other than what the cellos are doing. In the amateur world, where I mostly work, it's also necessary to remember the difficulties that some bowings present that amateur bassists will struggle with in ways that other strings will not. We all know the reasons, but conductors are quite often guilty of letting "perfection be the enemy of the good". Sometimes the musically ideal bowing that the Berlin Phil or the LSO would use is simply beyond amateur players and a "less good" bowing will mean that the section is tidier, more together and the overall effect is better than using the "perfect bowing". When you dig into it, there's a huge amount to think about!

 

[Andy Mopley]

Oh, that reminds me Neil...(and others that may want to help)..With attached, does the indicated bow direction look OK? I assume that sometimes with legato, it is necessary to change bow direction, depending on the music or to get the best sound, to your point..Thanks

 

[elberon]

Oh, that reminds me Neil...(and others that may want to help)..With attached, does the indicated bow direction look OK? I assume that sometimes with legato, it is necessary to change bow direction, depending on the music or to get the best sound, to your point..Thanks

Your markings for up bow are upside down. Up bow should be marked V not ^. Is this a European thing?

 

[Andy Mopley]

Your markings for up bow are upside down. Up bow should be marked V not ^. Is this a European thing?

Nah...just my bad. Thanks

 

[neilG]

Try this.

 

[Neil Pye]

I'd be tempted to play the groups of 3 eighth notes down-up-up

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Oh, that reminds me Neil...(and others that may want to help)..With attached, does the indicated bow direction look OK? I assume that sometimes with legato, it is necessary to change bow direction, depending on the music or to get the best sound, to your point..Thanks

You can also go the into the NY Phil digital and see what the big guns have marked.

 

[Andy Mopley]

Thanks all - really appreciative of all responses. I always take your comments on board.

 

[Andy Mopley]

From NY Phil..I guess it depends on the conductor or the cellist? In any case, few paths to follow.

 

[neilG]

It's worth noting that the NY Phil. part more closely matches the original, while the part that Andy has doesn't. I gave a bowing for the articulation in his part.