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Double Bass Self-taught bassists and the avant-garde
- Thread starter Rasputin
- Start date
- Nov 17, 2009
- 19
- 29
- Disclosures
- Trevor M Davis Basses, Robertson and Sons Violins
it is very easy to be original if you don't know what has already been created. in these modern times there is no excuse for not educating oneself as the resources abound in every corner. a public library today can pretty much secure anything you need and where it fails they usually have access to the internet, all free of charge. i am not trying to make an argument that in the past great players could not emerge completely self taught, merely that in this age this would be a foolish endeavor guided by what i suspect as idealogical rebelliousness. why one would not take benefit in every resource available to him is beyond me. and don't confuse self-taught with uneducated, do really think Wes was just naively moving his fingers into those great lines? and i don't buy the too poor to study argument; if you want something bad enough you'll do what it takes to get it, even if that means begging a good teacher or drinking water at a club and pestering the player after the show. life is unfair after all, take absolute pitch for instance!!!
I do and did. Negative issues like the lack of money can become huge motivational sources. In most of the players I mentioned (in fact all, except Buddy), negative racial issues were a factor. Overcoming negatives can produce personal empowerment and strength, IMO.
EDIT: Actually, my last statement is a fact. Not IMO.
Another EDIT: After rereading your post, it looks like you're saying the same kind of thing. Why then, do you not "buy it" ?
I think just there is a huge difference between jumping in the deep end, in a fertile time/scene, working as a full time musician with some of the greatest players ever and being too stuborn to take lessons.
The fact of the matter is Wes "obsessively" took the time to learn every cut of every solo of Charlie Christian until his fingers and ears bled. He played Christian's stuff note for note for years and gradually permutated and evolved his style. With regard to the outside and inside player. What about Lennie Tristano? Outside or inside? What about Phil Woods (Tristano's student)? Or Bill Russo? Tristano was teaching at his home in Floral Park, Long Island until his death in 1978. He was obsessed with teaching. There was a line down the block some days with you name it waiting for their lesson with Tristano, straight ahead jazz natzis, Rockers, and U.F.O. spaceship musicians. I think that alot of his students would fit into the "self taught" column. Who told Parker to cop all of Lester Young's stuff by wearing out his records ?........It's called woodshedding and you either do it or you are perpetually looking for another teacher.
Just that the music itself used to be a lot better teacher - you could work playing jazz and even free jazz, and learn on the Job! People like those listed were in all likelyhood too busy playing great music to take lessons. You just can't re-create that kind of thing.
There comes a time when you have to shut up, break it down, figure it out, cop, transpose, emulate, permutate and screw your teacher. Do it now.....not when you perfect this or that. I think there is too much information now. It's just too much stuff, Damon. Too much talk and not enough walk.
Agreed. I can't really get on board with distinctions between inside and outside.
A good improvisor understands their material and makes an interesting work in the moment with it. If you are using standards you need to know them well, if you are making abstract structures out of sound and texture you might find the overtone series and contemporary visual has more answers than tin pan alley tunes.
I find Red Mitchell and Peter Kowald equally interesting, they both work with all the colors and sublte shades of their material in an endlessly interesting way.
That's what I really was going to say. I was lucky enough to get right in. With me, the fun trumped study, plus the bed-side manner with teachers was pretty questionable.
And BTW, Chuck....Phil Woods studied at Julliard.
I'm pretty far from self-taught. I've had some very good teachers and mentors but, the fact of the matter is, it's the time I've spent (and will continue to spend) woodshedding that has truly made me progress. No teacher has really ever improved my playing. They have provided insight, direction, correction of technical flaws as well as other valuable tools. However, for the most part, it is what I did with this info that matters.
I think people often think that a teacher is some sort of guru that will unlock all the secrets. I never found that to be the case. A teacher can be a mentor and/or a facilitator but it is truly up to the student as to how far he wants to take the musical info he has been given.
Damon, why has the music stopped being such a good teacher? I'm not sure I get what you mean unless you are saying that it is no longer possible to immerse yourself in the jazz lifestyle of the 50's and 60's. For me, the recorded works of the jazz masters are as relevant and cogent today as they were 30 years ago IMHO.
Although this might rankle some, what I do find to be kind of interesting and maybe a little humorous is that in todays world, there are many colleges where you can get an advanced performance degree in jazz indicating that you are an accomplished jazzer without ever having gone on the road, or dealt with the myriad problems and situations that an actual working musician would encounter. It's sort of a virtual jazz experience or, let us say, an intellectual endeavor that approximates the jazz experience!
What I mean is pointing out guys who were FULL TIME musicians and playing with the greats as good examples of being self-taught is different from what most of us experience now.
Very few of us these days are able to be full time musicians in terms of our ideal art.
I love and respect tons of great, self taught players - all those listed in this thread, for example.
I don't think it is such a viable option today, and to make a decision to be self taught will probably not be as fruitful as it has been for those listed.
I learn tons of things about music from the time I devote to it alone and have not had a lesson in a good while.
I still vote for getting bass lessons when you have a choice in the matter.
But like Ed says, do what you want to do, I am just giving my opinion.
Very few of us these days are able to be full time musicians in terms of our ideal art.
I love and respect tons of great, self taught players - all those listed in this thread, for example.
I don't think it is such a viable option today, and to make a decision to be self taught will probably not be as fruitful as it has been for those listed.
I learn tons of things about music from the time I devote to it alone and have not had a lesson in a good while.
I still vote for getting bass lessons when you have a choice in the matter.
But like Ed says, do what you want to do, I am just giving my opinion.
Thanks Damon for the clarification. I would have to agree with all the points you make. A teacher can set you on the right path and certainly correct technical things. However, for me, the most creative and productive progress I've ever made has been through wood shedding and having a strong work ethic! Of course I'm a little weird, I love practicing.....
P.S. I do look forward to the teacher section that is supposedly on the drawing boards. I'm sure that will be a very helpful thread.
And, albeit he was only 15, according to Phil Woods what he learned from Tristano was that he didn't know ****.
A teacher can set you on the right path and certainly correct technical things. However, for me, the most creative and productive progress I've ever made has been through wood shedding and having a strong work ethic! Of course I'm a little weird, I love practicing.....
P.S. I do look forward to the teacher section that is supposedly on the drawing boards. I'm sure that will be a very helpful thread.
I might agree for myself as well, but I have to take into account that my teachers getting me off on the right foot makes any and all practice I do now have more impact.
Doing something correctly (or with eifficient technique) for 20min is often going to have more impact than hammering away at something for 8hrs with poor technique.
Damon,
I think we are essentially saying the same thing. Like I said before, I am pretty far from being self-taught and the things I learned from my teachers/mentors have been invaluable.
